How Can Client Engagement Strategies Drive Revenue Growth for Your Law Firm with Mark Stern

Episode Notes

Transcript

Karin Conroy:

This is Counsel Cast part of the Legal Talk Network, and I’m your host, Karin Conroy. When you face a complex case outside your expertise, you bring in a co-counsel for next level results. When you want to engage, expand, and elevate your firm, you bring in a marketing co-counsel. In this podcast, I bring in marketing experts who each answer one big question to help your firm achieve more. Here’s today’s guest.

Mark Stern:

Hi, I’m Mark Stern, CEO of Custom Box Agency. We focus on working with our clients to optimize the customer journey and the overall customer experience. The goal being how do we help get clients results faster? And a lot of how we bring this to life is in these physical experiences that help compliment the products and services that our clients are launching. Really take it to the next level, create something that’s a little bit more of a premium experience really to drive results.

Karin Conroy:

Mark, thank you for being here for our loyal listeners for this year. For sure. I feel like I started talking about the funnel even before this year, but officially in 2024, we have been covering the marketing funnel, hopefully not ad nauseum, but definitely over and over and over and just trying to get this whole idea of a very somewhat simple and very clear, good visual of what your marketing strategy can look like. And it starts with this simple six point funnel that I’ve talked about a lot, top, middle, bottom. And this, what you’re doing is so perfectly aligned with that topic. So today, let’s start with the topic and the title of the show, which is How can Client Engagement Strategies drive Revenue for your Law firm? Let’s start first with what this is not. What we’re not talking about is thank you notes. We’re going to start first in that middle of the funnel, and then of course, this applies to different parts of the funnel and we’ll get into that.

But where this fits in the whole calendar, we’re kind of at the middle of the funnel and the middle of the funnel can either be at that consideration phase when they’ve already probably visited your website or made a phone call and maybe you’ve sent a proposal or you’re in some kind of communication with them, or maybe they’ve already converted. So kind of in that middle the bottom just for reference is post-purchase and repurchase. According to my funnel, obviously there are many, many funnels. So starting in the middle of the funnel, we’re thinking about that, getting them in the door and signed up. And what this isn’t is a little thank you note or just kind of what Emily Post would tell you to do, right? So tell us why this is different.

Mark Stern:

Yeah, so much what we focus on for us is when it comes to sending people swag, we joke and say swag means stuff without a goal. Stop sending people stuff. And oftentimes people send stuff with their own logo branded on it. Typically stuff for me, either it gets thrown out, it gets left in the hotel room, it Gets sent over to Goodwill. What this is, is we’re so focused on giving people tools and resources they need to be set up for success out of the gates. So many of our clients, when you start to delve into their customer journeys, you put up these obstacles that you don’t even realize that you’re putting up, that your client may be, someday I will get to it, or I love this idea and I want to get into momentum, but they just never get around to it. They don’t have all the tools and resources they need to be set up for success. Our whole thing is how do we create everything they need in a box experience? And depending on if you’re top of funnel, middle of funnel, bottom of funnel, there’s completely different ways that you can leverage the strategy because at the top of the funnel, it needs to be a story of if it’s a box or if it’s a mailer and it’s an acquisition play. It’s all about nurturing and relationship building, establishing you as that trusted authority that you are their trusted advisor throughout this process and why you are different than all the other options that are out there. Now when we start to get into the middle for us, this is now starting to get them into momentum to get them results as to why they’re engaging with you in the first place.

Karin Conroy:

So top of the funnel is kind of awareness, trying to get them engaged. The middle is they’re already aware of you and what most people are talking about there is blog posts or maybe sending an email newsletter to just kind of stay top of mind. But how is this different? And give me an example of what this would look like.

Mark Stern:

Oh gosh, there’s so many different ways we leverage this, especially with lawyers. So for us, middle of funnel can be a couple of different things. If it’s early in the stages, you may have a lower ticket product or a free resource that if they opt in, you may send them something in the mail. And a lot of times people instantly think, oh, these boxes are going to be so expensive. We have items that range from two to six bucks if it’s a flat mailer and items that could range from anywhere from 15 to 30 bucks typically is my happy place with these experiences. So we’re not talking about breaking the bank. So if this is a front end, think of it as a different way to spend money that you may drop on Facebook or on some type of paid media. Instead of that, you’re leveraging direct mail in a different way and a good experience needs to start.

For me, I love it to start physical, but it needs to drag you back to digital. The way that I describe it is experiences seen through the census, sight, sound, touch, taste, smell, digital products that people are finding you online is only tapping into what they see and what they hear. When I bring in the physical, there’s the kinesthetic that gets activated to create more of an immersive experience and help people get those ahas and the breakthroughs that make them want to go deeper into your world. So right now we have a couple of different things that we’ve done with the law firms, especially when it comes to delivering the course part of the sell strategy. We’ve had a lawyer that helps people with trademarks filing and registering trademarks.

Karin Conroy:

Oh, this is a good one.

Mark Stern:

So how do we think through that experience? It’s part of it. And think about also taking the pressure off of the journey of you because a lot of people may not know that if you’re registering a trademark, it could be an up to 12 to 18 month process. So how do we incentivize that? Well, we can tell you here are the core phases of that process and set expectations along the way. Think about turning your business into its own board game that Kind of helps them navigate through every step of the way. And then there’s tools in the box that compliment the things that they need to do. So if there’s an education of, well, what type of copyright or trademark should we be filing? We can start to guide them through that with a combination of physical and digital in addition to engaging with your team directly. So that’s an example of how we can leverage that. Well, there’s a lot of people out there who have services to help you trademark your products and services. When you see this physical experience that you’re going to be getting, that compliments the journey that you’re about to go on, it has just a different perceived value than for a lot of what other people are putting out there. So that’s a perfect example of how we can start to think strategically around can we truly create this experience that gives them things that helps navigate and truly guide them through the price? And the other benefit of that is when it’s done, it takes a lot of pressure off of the team and the law firm

Karin Conroy:

Because

Mark Stern:

They’re not constantly having to check in the same capacity because expectation’s been setting and they can guide you back to the box experience because a lot of the thought leadership is in that box to help set expectations throughout that journey.

Karin Conroy:

So give me an example. I’m a client that just signed up and I’m getting a trademark and I know have some concept that it’s probably going to take forever, but I’ve maybe never done this before. What is in this box? Because the way that you’re describing it in terms of there needs to be education around the timeline and all of that stuff. Is it just a well-produced brochure or what are the actual things that you’re describing that has this physical reaction of something like that?

Mark Stern:

So I can actually show you, I actually have one of the boxes right here.

Karin Conroy:

Nice.

Mark Stern:

But a lot of what you want is there’s always a welcome no. That really establishes the what and the why. Welcome nos are important because it just reinforces the journey that they’re about to go on. I always love to include with all of our box experiences like getting started guide, a lot of what this getting started guide does is it reinforces the product or service that they just bought. It

Starts to highlight all the tools and resources that they have access to. It can have them meet the team So They know the team that they’re about to engage with. It also spotlights, this is the journey that you’re about to go on for the next 12 to 18 months.

Karin Conroy:

And

Mark Stern:

Then I like to reinforce it with customer client testimonials just to showcase, don’t take it from us, take it from the people we serve, and also spotlight your other products and services. So if you’re talking about a funnel, sometimes a funnel is really about spotlighting one core product and service, but the reality is your business may have several different services that they offer. This is why it’s important to have some type of resource that when people are engaging with you for the specific product or service that is being spotlighted in that funnel, you can also seed your universe so they know all the other ways that you can help them. It’s a very simple journey map that has the five stops that they go on to as they start to go through the trademarking process. They have a smart process, but as they go through it, each stop has its own envelope and size. Each envelope has the action cards and the tools and resources that are relevant at that junction along the journey. So all of this is in the box experience and there’s some other supporting tools and resources that align with some of the core messaging that they put out there, but a lot of it is how do we make it as easy as possible to navigate through the journey that they’re about to get on

Karin Conroy:

A complicated system. So you’re not putting a little bar of chocolate or any little gifty things in there that are just saying whatever it is really an informative, well-produced, well-designed set of information that’s going to walk them through what this whole process is going to be. So I want to get some ideas and examples of other things, but I wanted to take a step back because we started by talking about what this isn’t and I want people to understand how this fits overall into strategy. You and I both have MBAs, we have a very solid background in strategy and tying that to revenue. And this is not just like, Hey, this is a nice idea. You need to make people feel happy and understood. This is totally driving revenue and what you were said a minute ago about seeding your universe, I get this question all the time.

Most people come into my office for X thing, maybe they come in for a divorce or they come in for whatever, but I really want them to know that I also do YZ and these other 10 things. And that’s information that really needs to be strategically dripped because if you present that information in the beginning, it’s overwhelming, it’s not going to be received well and all of a sudden if it’s done poorly, they land on your website, they see a million different options and they think, okay, this is not the person for me. So talk about how this slow funnel of dripping this information through can really drive all of that ongoing revenue in different directions in a more strategic way.

Mark Stern:

So one of my beliefs that I hold, and I think this is really important, but I have a belief that people don’t want a lot of advisors and mentors and different people to engage with. They want to find the one, two or the handful of partners that if I have something that I need support with, I can go to them because I already have a relationship with them, I trust them. And what I seem to find, I can’t tell you how many of my friends in this game that are all entrepreneurs that use so many different systems because they get so they’re all over the place and Everyone is pulling them in a different direction, does a different form of guidance. And so

It’s okay to say, what are my most popular services that I offer as a law firm and lead with that in the market? Because if it’s the most popular or the most attractive, that may be the way that you start to build a relationship with them. But through that process, it’s important that you also let them know, here are all the other ways that I can support you. Sometimes you don’t want, and this is kind of where when we talk about a funnel versus a traditional, let’s just say an e-comm store, you go to Best buy.com or amazon.com, it can get overwhelming because there’s so many options there. The cool thing about a funnel is the funnel keeps you focused and it can keep you focused a particular product or service that you’re trying to spotlight, but it doesn’t mean that’s all that you do. Pulling them into that and building the relationship. Why do people oftentimes stop buying from you? Well, typically, and I’ve had a lot of mentors that have used this as an example, two of the big reasons that they stop buying One is you piss them off. They’re just not happy with you, they’re angry with you. The second reason is that you stop selling to them, you stop presenting the other options and they just don’t know what they don’t know. and So this is kind of why with any experience that we may send, if it’s a box, if it’s a mailer, you may have one objective that they’re looking at to keep it simple as to why they’re acquiring their product and service. You may send them a piece to educate them on the trademarking process that naturally leads them to the conclusion, I don’t want to do this, I need to hire the law firm to do this for me. But Through doing that, you should also say, and oh, by the way, here’s how else we can support you. If you forget to do that, you’re leaving money on the table.

Karin Conroy:

So I feel like that is a perfect segue into this idea. You have these three different buckets that I’m just going to call buckets. Maybe you have a better word for it, for reasons why you would typically send to a client. You have acquisition, delivery and retention. And we’re going kind of backwards through the funnel. We started in the middle, which would align with your delivery. So that trademark experience, they’ve signed up. Now here’s the complicated system and process and we’re going to lay that all out. But I feel like what you were just describing kind leads right into this idea of retention, which we will eventually get back around to the acquisition part too. But I really want to focus on retention for a minute. This is the equivalent to my bottom of the funnel. So it’s either post-purchase or repurchase in the funnel that I have put together.

My theory and belief is that this is the place where most people are lacking, where they either don’t have a strategy or they’re not executing. It’s just not happening because it’s not top of mind and it’s kind of hard to think about a good idea of what to do and how to do it and whatever. So let’s transition into how your approach works for that retention. Typically, we’re talking about after the post repurchase, trying to get them back in your system. And obviously this is going to vary from one type of law to the next, but how do you guys do that?

Mark Stern:

Yeah, it’s a great question. So retention for us is a couple of things. Retention can be introducing the next piece of the equation for the journey that they’re currently on. Retention could be recognition, I see you, I want to recognize you for this milestone. So it could be some type of award that you sent them if they hit a certain milestone within the process, some way you can celebrate them. I have clients that at the end of the process invite them into their office. They may take a picture with a big check that was their settlement claim and do something that starts to educate and give ’em the next piece. But there’s so many different ways to leverage retention. For us, a lot of what we’re looking at, for me, our most common thing is to say, let me paint the story of what it’s like working with you.

But the first box that you get, this may be box 1 0 4, nice. If it’s box 1 0 4, all of a sudden box 2 0 4, 3 0 4, 4 0 4 becomes a retention play. You also create an open loop that people may want to collect the series. So why is our most common box size the size of the smaller size? Well, it’s because the biggest thing that we look at is what are the things that we naturally save? One of the things I know you save is when you read a book, you typically don’t throw out a book, you put a book on a bookshelf.

So a lot of our boxes are the size of books, and if you have it the size of a book, you can also see the foundations. This is one of a series of boxes for this client in the dental space,

But we want people to put it on their bookshelf. We know you save board games or sporting equipments, things with replayability. How do I engineer something that you can go back through it again at a later date. If you’ve ever listened to a song or watched a movie and then six months later watched it again and had a different experience or different interpretations because you change, your environment changes, you can start to engineer all these elements into that in the idea of how do you stay relevant to someone? It’s all about how you communicate and are talking with them truly, whether it’s through the interaction or through the physical pieces that you give them, staying in that role of that mentor for them. But for me, I think the biggest one we do is kind of creating those open loops of saying this is box one of four, which instantly queues up.

If you want to collect the other pieces, you need to keep playing the game, you need to re-up, follow whatever’s the next part of service. You may have a lawyer that there’s certain things that they just want to educate their people on to protect themselves at the highest degree that they may not be considering even before they need to hire them for their services. So there could be things just in their life in terms of how you set up your life to make sure you’re ultimately protected. So there’s just so many different ways that you can take it.

Karin Conroy:

So do they usually have a finite number of boxes and then after box four, what happens? Do you then send them just some kind of minor because for example, with our agency, our decision process with some firms can go on for ages. Usually it has got shorter over the years, but there’s some firms or lawyers who have this thought of Right now I’m working for a firm and I’m going to go out and start my own firm someday. And so they kind of follow me and they’re making all these sort of Pinterest boards thinking about their dream down the road during covid all of a sudden, bam, that was like the dream was a real thing and everybody was pulling the trigger. But sometimes I will hear from people and they’re like, I’ve been following you for years and now it’s the time. So do you have a system that would nurture over a length like that and how do you recommend kind of approaching that?

Mark Stern:

Yeah, so here’s the reality is that every single box and every single experience is so different and unique to the client. This is why at the front of our process, two things that we do in our first phase when we work with clients is we’ll do a two hour virtual strategy session with you. This is where we break down what’s the big vision you’re trying to achieve? Where are you today? Where do you want to be tomorrow? We have these 10 categories to understand how can I get smart on your business? If you have a product, if you have a course, if you have any information that you can share with us, we’ll go through all of that before the client flies into Austin, Texas and spends a full day with us. And the whole full day is an all day workshop where that’s what we do is we outline what’s the vision? Because it could be four boxes, it could be we have a client that’s doing an eight part box series over two years. It just depends. Some clients need only three, but some clients just need one. It’s a very clean defined process because what you don’t want to do, which a lot of coaches or businesses are very good at, is quickly overwhelming people out of the gates. And when people are overwhelmed, what happens is they put it on the shelf, say, I’m going to get to it someday, or they refund because they don’t want to feel like a failure. And if the process is designed upfront that makes ’em feel like a failure, then you’ve lost them on the get go when you could have easily created an onboarding process and guided them through with a good journey, how to navigate your product and service to get to the next step.

Karin Conroy:

That clean, succinct. We talk a lot about having your niche or niche or however I still have not decided which way I prefer to pronounce it. But either way, having that very clean communication where people know exactly what they are getting in for, and this is where marketing becomes confusing because it’s like, I don’t know what I don’t know. That is a phrase I say I’ve heard you say a few times.

And this idea of reducing that decision overwhelm. This is part of the reason why I’ve said this many, many times. I’m a huge fan of Trader Joe’s. You go in, there is one kind of peanut butter that I like. I don’t have to look at a whole wall of peanut butter and try to sit, okay, this one is this much per ounce, but this one has too much salt and this one for one decision and I’m making a whole cart full of decisions. It’s too much and I walk out exhausted, and that’s only one tiny part of my day. So if you can make that decision process shorter, more succinct, clear, and a no-brainer, all of a sudden the flow of business for the right kinds of clients goes crazy. So this is the transition that I was trying to make with what you were saying a minute ago in terms of why does this matter? Maybe I already have all this stuff all over my website. I don’t feel like I need to restate all of the things about why they need a trademark and everything. Why is this different and why does this matter in terms of strategy?

Mark Stern:

Oh gosh. So there’s two things I want to hit on. The first thing I want to hit on is just to reinforce something that you did say, which is the important role of the entrepreneur, the trusted mentor hiring Karen to help work with you is that it’s our job to, this is our expertise. This is where we play, and the more variables we give to our clients or customers, the more they’re going to want to start to finagle it. This is why less is so much more. You want to help guide them. They need to trust the process. And that’s why I just say, this is why you’re hiring us.

You’re hiring people because we’ve been along the journey and I hold a belief that is there’s many times in life that if it’s your area of expertise, you should step into the role of the driver, the guide. But Then there’s many areas of my life that I’m like, I hate to use this example, but the limbing just tell me what I need to do and I’m just going to follow you. I don’t want to have to think about it.

Karin Conroy:

Exactly.

Mark Stern:

So the important is as we’re engineering these experiences, the less variables you can introduce, the more binary is it this, is it that you’re actually making it easier for them to go through the process. And here’s the other thing, when you don’t have a clearly defined process or clearly defined journey, it’s amazing to see people get the outcome and you’re just like, how did you get here? And it’s just because they’re grossly misinterpreted, but the construct and the structure and the rules were not set in a way to just set them up for success to get the right outcome. And then you’re just like, okay. But that’s part of the journey.

Karin Conroy:

But I feel like just to support that, I feel like the more decisions they have, they become insecure. So if you have 72 different options for peanut butter, I might choose the right one, but there’s a one in 71 chance that I’m choosing the wrong one. But if I go into Trader Joe’s and there’s basically salted and unsalted, there’s a much higher chance I’m going to pick the right one and I’m going to just feel secure walking out of there, okay, I got this, I wanted the salted version. And so they feel better about working with you. And I can’t even tell you how important it is. What you said a minute ago of letting your person, your advisor, your strategist, whatever you want to call this person that you have hired, let them be the expert. There’s a higher chance that they have been through this many, many more times than you have. And when you come in and kind of derail the process, you’re going to end up with the weaker end result.

Mark Stern:

Yeah. What you just reminded me of is this is exactly why when I go to Cheesecake Factory, I get the same exact thing every single time because it’s the one thing I know I like it. And I don’t want to risk to be like, well, what if I were this other? Because their menu is this big,

Karin Conroy:

Right? But do you not sit there and page through the menu and think about all of the other 72 pages and think, oh, maybe that pasta thing might be good, but I’ve never tried it. So I don’t know for sure because I always get the same thing at Cheesecake Factory to, but I will sit there for 10 minutes and think, huh, I wonder about that salad on page 36, maybe next time. But this time, if we’re sure going to go back to the tried and true because I know exactly how it tastes, it’s dependable, and I don’t feel insecure about it.

Mark Stern:

Yeah. So to your question as to why, so here’s the reality, you can never over reinforce the journey that they’re about to go on. You cannot over reinforce the key benefits of your product and services because people have very different learning styles and they absorb information in very different capacities. And here’s the reality, people forget. Then they question and they go, why did I do this and why did I do this with you? And so we have to reinforce,

Karin Conroy:

This is why you drive people through these things because they are looking for you to be that expert. And you have gone through those experiences. They are on a daily basis being a lawyer, and they don’t necessarily know all of those little pieces that are going to pull their clients. And just, I feel like there is, I keep coming back to this feeling of insecurity, is when you feel solid and secure in that decision, your experience and your results just going to be better.

Mark Stern:

But this is also why if you produce content and you leverage it on social media or any paid media platform, if you take the same message, I’ve had people tell me, well, I did that on Facebook. We need to do something different on Instagram. No, you don’t.

Karin Conroy:

No,

Mark Stern:

You need to take the same message on Instagram. Well, I put it out there, why would I put this in my book? Well, again, people learn with different modalities because everyone absorbs information. Well, it’s on my website, so why would I put it on social media? You need to constantly reinforce it again and again and again. I have mentors that have told the same exact stories to really drive home a message

Multiple times. I’ve heard those same stories half a dozen times and it never gets old because hearing it in the right context again and again, constantly reinforces it. So again, with the box experience, we continuously reinforce and remind them as to why they’re on their journey, on the place where they are on the journey, reminding them of the key things that are top of mind for that point of the junction, and those are the things that you cannot overdo. So this is a big reason why you can never educate to really draw in. No one’s going to say, I’m getting sick of seeing this, therefore I don’t want your products to services. You’re helping them get an outcome. A lot of times these people are in pain. You are the solution to their pain.

Karin Conroy:

Okay, so in my mind, I just put this as kind of a, I dunno what the word I’m looking for. So I’m just going to say I feel like the difference from where we started this entire episode in this conversation is you have these little thank you boxes and those are about gratitude and that’s not a bad thing. That’s nice and whatever. But this is not that. This is a branding experience. This is about kind of reinforcing why they made the decision, validating that decision, telling them more about your brand and why you’re different and what they’re going to get out of you. This is branding. This is not about saying thank you

Mark Stern:

And this is also differentiating you in the marketplace in a way that most of your other competitors are not having providing this degree of service, this degree of a deliverable to guide them through that process. Every time we do it, everyone talks about just how innovative and how this uplevels them, which is really what we want to do. We really want to create something special that compliments what it is you’re trying to achieve with your clients.

Karin Conroy:

So we talked about delivery, we talked about retention. We’re going to flip back around to the beginning and just briefly, let’s just give a minute to acquisition. So you’ve got the three and why this lines up so perfectly with my funnel is there’s six parts, but it’s just top, middle and bottom, which is acquisition, delivery, and retention according to the way you guys do it. So acquisition aligned with my funnel, the top of the funnel is awareness and consideration. Once again, typical traditional marketing. What most people are thinking of is social media, blog posts, or maybe traditional networking, like getting out there and meeting people and shaking hands and kissing babies, all of that kind of stuff. So just getting your face out there. Once again, we’re talking about branding. This is not about any of the other options, but how do you guys approach acquisition and what are your recommendations for that top of the funnel part?

Mark Stern:

Yeah, so top of the funnel, again, just to reinforce it, this is about awareness, people discovering you. This is about nurturing them. So you are positioning yourself as their trusted mentor, your trusted advisor. This is the law firm that we need to hire. So in this situation, you can send a box experience. Again, box experiences. For us, my happy zone is 15 to $30. We’ve had boxes that have been less, we’ve had boxes that have been more, but it’s something that think about if you were spending the money to acquire a customer, you can leverage a box. What a lot of people love to do front of the funnel is the flat mailer experiences. So people may hit your website and you may have a tool that just provides a degree of education on your products and services or how to approach a certain situation. If it’s personal injury, if it’s getting a trademark, whatever it may be, This is something that you can do to educate them. Typically what I like to see in an experience like this, and I’ve had clients that have said, if someone gets on the phone with them for a discovery call, they may say, can I send you something? I want to send you some materials that are just complimentary. This is on us. You may say that typically we charge X for this, but I just want to get this to you. And what I want inside here is it can still have a degree of journey. This one is a flat mailer. We did for a leading authority, helping people beat alcohol addiction. She didn’t want to beat your alcohol addiction to receive that in the mail. So this is why you see the experiment welcome kit, but we still have those same pieces of welcome note, a getting started guide, a journey map of the journey that they’re going through through this experience. And this one’s a little bit busier because it’s a 30 day experience, but typically what I like to see from an acquisition piece is can I do something in there that may be able to be consumed in 30 to 60 minutes? The timing is very intentional. Why 30 to 60 minutes? I want to be able to position myself as a trusted mentor.

I’m an expert in my field. I want to provide some degree of insight or guidance for them that by the end of the 30 to 60 minutes, they already having a breakthrough and can understand how you fit into their equation. And a lot

Karin Conroy:

Of times, is that content going to typically be different than what they can find on the website or will there be repeat or overlap between what they can already find on the firm site?

Mark Stern:

So it just depends. It can be a reinforcement of a lot of the core messages. These are what my customers need to know before becoming a client for us. You can reinforce it. What’s really cool is if you just create a unique and new experience and welcome it, make it very specific to this, make it a very differentiated piece. This is something that we produce one of our law clients and every time she goes and speaks on stage, this is where she sends people. So she’s like, want more information? Go here. It’s a free kit, I’ll pay for it. All you need to do is pay for shipping or they may just opt in and get it for free. So it just depends. What’s nice about putting a little bit of a dollar value to it, even if it’s $7 just To cover your hard cost in shipping, the benefit of that is it doesn’t break the bank. You kind of break even. You’re not making money on it. But part of this is not about with the front end of the funnel, a lot of times it’s not a money maker. It’s about nurturing. It’s about breaking even. Some people may even take a slight loss on the front end for the acquisition piece, but the goal is to position yourself as their trusted mentor in a way that they’re like, if this is how much value I got for free or for $7, what’s it going to be like if I were to hire this law firm?

Karin Conroy:

Yeah, I was waiting for the word value because back in before my days of working with lawyers, I worked for real estate agents then, even though they were totally free, that everybody knows what I’m talking about when there’s always a dollar value in that top corner and you’ll be sitting at a car wash or whatever and there’s all these free magazines sitting there, but they always have a value because if you think that it’s just going to be a whole bunch of ads and coupons, you’re probably not going to open it, but you want to get something out of it. So you’re picking it up and looking for the articles or something that’s going to be something you’re interested in. So for the same reason you put this dollar value on it so that you are, there’s an exchange there and there’s a little piece of gratitude, but there’s also a little bit of an obligation.

This person gave me something that has a value, which I’m going to go back to Trader Joe’s just for a moment because they haven’t brought back the samples since Covid. But they didn’t do that just because they were kind people. They do that because they know it drives sales. They know that people will try those samples and oftentimes they think it’s okay, but they try it and they’re like, thank you so much for this little piece of cracker and a cheese. I was just famished and okay, fine, I’ll buy a box, whatever. So there is this whole psychology behind what’s happening when you exchange something of value for free and you give that to them and then they feel they have this little piece of obligation because maybe that’s what their mom told ’em. Like if somebody gives you something, say thank you, or whatever. So there’s a psychology behind it. I guess the long-winded point I’m trying to make,

Mark Stern:

I love that example, by the way. That was such a perfect example. And HEBI live in Texas. HEB is basically our grocery chain and it’s the best grocery chain.

Karin Conroy:

Okay, it’s time for the thought leaders library. Remember, our website has a curated collection of all the top books from our guest. So Mark, what is the one book you think every lawyer should have on their bookshelf? And I know you feel strongly about this one. So good.

Mark Stern:

Oh my goodness. This was my book. This is the book of last year for me for 2023. It was like the right book I needed at the right time. It’s Dr. Benjamin Hardy’s, who Not How. And the core message here is just around the fact that we try and focus on how am I going to do this? How am I going to figure it out? And the core message here is he breaks it down so beautifully, but stop to asking the question of how am I going to do this? Start asking the question, who is the person that I need that will help me get that result faster? You may spend more money on the front end, but the reality is if you get the right who in place, it’s going to skyrocket and accelerate you. I mean, this is why you should hire Karen. This is a perfect example. If Karen is your who, stop trying to figure out the thing that Karen’s going to be able to solve for

Karin Conroy:

You, right? Well, and just flip it around from the perspective of a lawyer. You have plenty of clients who have come to you and said, why should I not DIY, my divorce with legal Zoom? And then you have a laundry list of reasons why you should be that expert to be hired. You should be kind of walking the walk of that idea. I am going to be the expert for my clients. I’m going to focus my energy on what I’m really good at and that’s going to build my firm. I’m not going to waste my time trying to figure out marketing strategy because that is not what I went to school for. That is not my expertise. I’m going to get the best of the best around. And this is why for the same reason that you do the same thing or you should be doing the same thing in your firm. Okay, so tell me what else you love about this book.

Mark Stern:

Oh my goodness. He talks about all the freedoms. He talks about the freedom of relationships, the freedom of work, and the freedom of personal and just how he starts to do it and really encompasses that. But that was the whole thing is that it’s been rare that I read a book in a way that I can’t stop reading it. I’m also a listener. I don’t know if you’re an audible.

Karin Conroy:

No, I do the physical. I appeal more to these boxes. I used to need to hold an actual physical book. Now I’m a Kindle person, but I do need to hold it. The audio thing doesn’t work for me.

Mark Stern:

It is one of those that you start to play back everything that you’re working on. You’re like, why? And here’s a perfect test. If there’s something that you want to do, but there’s clearly a block and you’re instantly saying, I’m procrastinating. Is it procrastinating or is it for me? I know when I get stuck. Most important thing you can do is recognize you’re stuck or recognize you’re procrastinating because sometimes the procrastination is just you not recognizing your own limitations. And so that is a lot of what the book has started to bring to life is that now I’ve become a lot more conscious to say, why can’t I get this done? Why do I keep delaying this out another day, which turns into weeks, which turns into months when the reality is, and a perfect example is Dr. Benjamin Hardy talks about the idea that he wants, he wanted to get on 200 podcasts to help bring attention to one of his book launches. It seemed like an overwhelming feat. He hired the right who knew how to do that. And I want to say that that who got him on 200 podcasts in less than two months, something crazy.

Karin Conroy:

Oh my gosh.

Mark Stern:

It was such a quick thing, but he could never have done it himself, and he was putting it off the right who came into place, set up the system. So he just had to show up as a result that really started to hockey stick him up in terms of helping him grow and sell his

Karin Conroy:

Book. I feel like this applies to, I mean obviously we’re talking about business and firms, but I feel like it applies. It’s one of those great books that applies to life in general. One of the greatest things I did in the last few years is stop doing laundry. I have a laundry service and it is shockingly reasonable. And yes, can I do laundry? Absolutely. I could do it all day long, but they sent out a thing. The service that I use that the average family spends at least four hours a week, a week on laundry, what I can do and the amount of money I can make in those four hours versus what I’m spending to have them leave it at the front, it’s back the next day, perfectly folded. It is amazing. Plus it’s this giant weight off my shoulders. So it’s not just the question, could I do it?

Can I get this off my list? So anytime I look for what’s been on my list for more than a couple days, this is not my thing. Who is going to do this for me? Because clearly, if it’s something I’m excited about, I’m going to jump at it. I’m going to get that thing done, and it should not be there for more than a couple days. And if it is, figure out how to get it off the list, like you’re saying in the title of the book, find your who, who’s going to do this, that I can get this off my list, and

Mark Stern:

That’s such a good reminder because my dryer just died.

Karin Conroy:

I’ll give you the name of the service because it’s nationwide. Please give me the name. It’s amazing. Okay, so Mark, what is a big takeaway that you’d like everybody to get from this episode?

Mark Stern:

Oh my goodness. So a big takeaway here is stop making this overcomplicated for your customers or your clients to know what to do. The more you can minimize overwhelm. So it really starts with what’s the outcome? Get very clear on the outcome. Go back to the beginning and look to say, okay, now that I know what the outcome is, how do I make the easiest way to onboard them and rev them up of the journey that they’re about to go on with my law firm? And then really help just define that process. If you can do that, that’s a huge, huge element here. The other thing which you said, but you didn’t directly say it, now I really want to build a box to help lawyers launch their own law firm.

Karin Conroy:

Yes,

Mark Stern:

We Should talk,

Karin Conroy:

That’s a good one.

Mark Stern:

That’s a perfect experience. And that could be a multier experience to focus them on the initial things or focus a box on marketing or focus a box on operations or focus a box on hiring and

Karin Conroy:

If acquisition. I mean, you’re trying to just pull in a whole client base. I feel like that would be amazing. Okay, awesome. Mark Stern is the founder of Custom Box Agency. On the show page, we’ll have links to all of his stuff, LinkedIn, social media, the website, all of that good stuff. But take a different look at this client journey, how you can move people through and not just sending the little thank you note. This is strategy, moving people through and branding, like getting your reputation and your brand and your name out there and supporting the psychology of that decision through their entire lifespan with your firm. Take a look. We’ve got some good links there. Thank you so much for being here.

Mark Stern:

Thank you, Karin. I had a great time.

Karin Conroy:

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Counsel Cast podcast. Be sure to visit our website at Counsel Cast dot com for the resources mentioned on the episode and to give us your feedback. If you enjoyed this episode, I would appreciate if you could rate and review the podcast on Apple and subscribe to your favorite podcast platform. See you on the next one.

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