EP 816- Conversation with Chief Justice of the Missouri Supreme Court Part One

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, a podcast about successfully navigating law and life featuring the women trial attorneys at the Simon Law Firm.

Liz Lenivy:

Hello and welcome back to another episode of Heels in the Courtroom. This is Liz Lenivy, and today I’m joined by Amy Gunn, Elizabeth McNulty Erica Slater, and a very special guest, chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell of the Missouri Supreme Court. Welcome to the podcast, judge.

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

Thank you. I’m delighted to be here because I’m a big fan of heels in the Courtroom, so this is exciting for me to be a part of the podcast. We are

Liz Lenivy:

So excited to have you on as well, and thank you for joining us. For those of you who may not be familiar with Judge Russell, let me do a quick little background on her very impressive bio. She is a seventh generation Missourian. She graduated from Truman State University with her Bachelor of Arts and Bachelor of Science in Communications and Print media before going on to the University of Missouri for law school after law school, she clerked for Missouri Supreme Court Judge George Gunn, before then going into private practice at Clayton and Rhodes Law Office. She was then appointed to the Missouri Court of Appeals Eastern District, and then she was appointed to the Missouri Supreme Court in September of 2004, where she has spent the last 20 years of her career. Her first term as Chief Justice was served from 2013 until 2015, and she’s currently in her second term as the chief justice that started in 2023 and that will go until 2025. And I’m very excited to also get to announce that this is the first time that we have had a female majority on the Missouri Supreme Court. I think that that deserves a round of applause.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Go girls heels in the highest Courtroom. That’s nice. She’s been working on that since November.

Liz Lenivy:

So Judge Russell, if we could learn a little bit more about you. Can you tell us and share with our listeners what made you want to become an attorney?

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

Well, I reflect upon that a lot and recently I was given a copy of an application that I filled out when I wanted to be a rotary scholar right after college. And I thought, I’m going to be embarrassed to read this, what I said when I was 21, 22 years old. It’s going to sound really stupid, but what I said there was, and what I still believe today is I always wanted to have a job where I could help people. And when I thought about a career in journalism, I wanted to write consumer affairs stories. I wanted to be able to tell the public where some traps were in consumer products and to help disclose bad manufacturers. And so I just always wanted to be helpful to people. And the thought of being a lawyer didn’t really occur to me until actually my last year of college.

I had done some internships both in Jefferson City with the legislature. I went to Truman State and at Truman State, internships in Jefferson City lasted from January to May and you moved to Jefferson City and you were there full time. So go Truman State, other colleges where the interns would come down for a day or two. We were there full time. So I got to see lawyers working in government and drafting of legislation, which isn’t always pretty, but it’s the sausage being made and it’s still the best government we could have. And then I did an internship in DC for my congressman and saw it on a little bit different level, maybe on steroids, a little bit lawmaking. And my family was not political, I just applied for these jobs and each time I applied I was going to be the press secretary for the particular legislator or congressperson. And anyway, I took the lsat, did pretty well, had a great GPA and knew a woman a year older than me who said, come on down to law school at Mizzou. The water’s fine. I just didn’t have any confidence in myself. I didn’t think I was smart enough. I was from a rural area, so I went to law school thinking, okay, I will become a lawyer, but I know one thing for sure. I will never, ever, ever work in a Courtroom

Moral to the story. Never say never. So

Erica Slater:

Judge, you said that you didn’t feel smart enough going to law school. Tell me a little bit more about that and why you felt that way from a confidence standpoint and how did that begin to change?

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

So I think first did speech class, maybe even in high school, you’ve never given a speech before. I would get up and my knees would knock and my voice would quiver. I didn’t have much confidence in my public speaking ability. Again, I’m from a farm family, nobody in our family. I was a lawyer. My dad had gone to two years of college. My mother was a housewife. It was a very traditional time where women were kind of just in little predetermined career paths. But I knew I was intelligent enough that I could do most things and I wanted to be out on the farm bailing hay with the guys I wanted to show I could do it. So I was competitive. We all a little competitive. I was always taught in journalism school to write on the level of a sixth grade individual. And so your creativity is stifled. And I thought as my grandfather would always say to me, get all the education you can get. And so I thought I’m going to get all the education I can get if I can do this. But I wasn’t sure. I wasn’t sure about public speaking and being able to stand up in a Courtroom and defend someone or advocate for someone and not cause them more harm than good.

Erica Slater:

So when you got down to law school, did you get there and you realized you were blowing people out of the water or did you just gain confidence as you stayed with it?

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

Probably gain more confidence as I stayed with it and then later I did not blow anybody out of the water.

Erica Slater:

Well, I won’t ask to see her transcript, but I’m sure you’re being humble.

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

I did fine, but everybody’s smart in law school, right? A whole new you were like Valley Victorian when you’re in high school and college and then you to law school and they’re all Valley Victorians and so it was challenging. Yeah, it was hard.

Amy Gunn:

What advice would you have? I have a niece. We just actually took a tour of St. Louis University law school this morning, and so she’s a senior going into senior year of college and once believes that she wants to go to law school. What advice would you have for her or young women in her same

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

Boat? And I talk to young women all the time. I have a fourth cousin who came to visit me this week at the court and to talk about careers and she’ll get ready to start law school in the fall next month now. And there’s a lot of things I would say, and one is keep an open mind. Back to my earlier point about pigeonholing yourself and what you think you want to do. She’ll have constant people asking, especially people outside the legal field, what do you think you want to do with your law degree? Why do you want to be, what area do you want to work in? Did any of you know when you started law school that you’re doing what you thought you would be doing when you were a one L two? L three L? Yes,

Amy Gunn:

Yes.

Erica Slater:

I went to law school

Liz Lenivy:

100% committed to being a prosecutor and I have never been a

Erica Slater:

Prosecutor.

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

Thank you Liz, for validating my point

Amy Gunn:

Because

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

Most people will say they’re doing something that they never anticipate they’d be doing. And so you all are the exceptions to the rule, but maybe you’re going to work in a city that does securities reg or you’re going to be doing employment law. You kind of have to go with what the book of businesses and you have to go with what the law firm specializes in does and geographically where you’re going to live. I tell people keep an open mind, take advantage of every opportunity. Professors nowadays are so student friendly and they’re so helpful to students. The folks at Mizou are so helpful to all the law schools. They’re very competitive to get students nowadays. And so it’s a lot more student friendly than when I went. So keep an open mind and take advantage of all the opportunities that you can while you’re there.

Amy Gunn:

I appreciate that and I am sure she listens. I mean I’m sure of it, so I appreciate that. Tell us your decision to go from the practice of law, which I know you enjoyed to the bitch.

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

Yeah, and that was tough too. So I was 36 years old. Are you guys anybody? 36 yet

Erica Slater:

39? I’m closest probably maybe not

Elizabeth McNulty:

30. And

Amy Gunn:

I am 33 and I’m the elder states woman.

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

That’s fine, Amy. I feel that pain.

So yeah, everything was going great in my practice and going to the bench was going to be a pay cut, but I was married and so I knew I could absorb that loss in income, but it was a greater opportunity to serve. It was an opportunity to serve more people, although not directly across the desks like I had been used to. But I loved being a LawClerk at the Supreme Court. So I love the ability as you do in law school when you’ve got the luxury to be able to dig into an issue and have the luxury of time to research and to write. So it was going to be a huge opportunity, huge honor. But if it didn’t work out, I knew I had a great day job and would be happy continue to do that. So I took a chance. And

Amy Gunn:

Then tell us about your progression on the bench.

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

So I think I was very fortunate because I was in the right place at the right time. So we’re talking the middle 1990s and at that time there was a real strong push to start putting some women on the bench and there had not been many women on the bench yet, but there was a recognition that women could do the job too and that we need to start putting more women on benches. So lucky for me, I’d had a pretty varied practice and I had been really involved in lots of bar activities because many times the Missouri bar would have a committee and they would say, we need to have a lawyer from northeast Missouri on this committee and be great. If we had a woman

Elizabeth McNulty:

Here, I’d be

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

The only one that they could come up with. And so you raise your hand and I was on the young lawyer section council that was so much fun. I got to meet a lot of people that I’m still close friends with that really helped me make panels to be on the court of appeals. And so I was on the Court of appeals. Funny story. I walk into the court of appeals the first day and I’m 36 and I’m right off the farm like the Beverly Hill bellies. Howdy. Here

Elizabeth McNulty:

She comes

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

And I sit in the waiting area, the reception area, waiting for them to come show me where my new office is going to be. And that’s a lovely group of judges and they’re mostly my dad’s age and a bunch of old white men. There was one woman there, judge Kathy Ann Crane. But other than that it was 12 other nice men. And so a young attorney who’s still practicing here in town, so I won’t mention his name, walked by me and said, oh, nice to see you. Are you interviewing to be a LawClerk? And so when he appears in front of me at the Supreme Court today,

Elizabeth McNulty:

Does he know? Does remember that

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

Story? You know what, I never been able to remind him about it because he’s got a case in front of us. I don’t want to do it from the bench

Elizabeth McNulty:

Freaking out. Do you want to do it from a podcast?

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

But I do tell my colleagues that story, but the nice thing about that, that was so sweet, but unfortunately you’re

Erica Slater:

Gracious.

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

Nobody accuses me or questions whether or not I’m a LawClerk today. That’s the really

Erica Slater:

Sad part

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

Is that I’m not confused for being a LawClerk anymore. So you know what, you outgrew everything that’s right. But that was a fun little story. So anyway, those judges were all very helpful, very patient with me, very good about teaching me how to disagree without being disagreeable, writing tips, just the tools of the trade in the job. And I appreciate all the help I got. But I was there for about nine and a half years. And meanwhile we kept our main home in Jefferson City. We had a condo in Kirkwood and I was here Monday through Friday living in Kirkwood and working downtown and went home on weekends. So it was kind of a goal for us to kind of start living together as a husband and wife occasionally. And so the thought of having the opportunity to serve with the Supreme Court would be way too cool. And I had applied a couple of times, but finally made it in 2004.

Erica Slater:

Well judge, I had an interesting experience yesterday, as you know through our nonpartisan court plan, I serve on the City Judicial Commission and we had an all day public interview. We interviewed 20 applicants for two judicial vacancies, but that’s just putting me in the place. The story is we were in the smaller Courtroom in the Court of appeals, and you could probably estimate it too, maybe 60 or 70 photographs of judges who have served on the court in that room and they are in chronological order and they go around the room and in like an eight hour day doing interviews, I was staring at these pictures all day and they start in the sixties or seventies and of course it is white men of a certain look and stature and the glasses were trendy in the seventies. But it’s so interesting to see them all lined up because it tells the story of, you have Judge Jean Hamilton, who was our first female judge on the Eastern District Court of Appeals, and then Judge Kathy Ann Knob Crane, who was the second, they also went that order on the federal bench when they both moved up.

They were about a month apart. And Judge Hamilton was a month before Judge Crane, which in

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

Fact Judge Crane replaced Judge Hamilton. So you’re right, judge Hamilton was

Erica Slater:

First,

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

And when she left, then the next woman was appointed and it was Judge Crane. So it was just Judge Crane and 13 men. And so when I came as the number three, it was the first time the court had ever had two women at one time. Oh

Erica Slater:

Wow. Well, and so that’s so interesting about looking at that progression and then you see Judge Draper’s picture and judgment at Baker’s picture. And slowly as you go around the room you see other faces and colors start to blend into the court. And just seeing that as a visual story and knowing all the history that came behind that, you have a whole wall pictures with two women on it, and then you turn the corner and there’s your picture and then from that corner on, everything kind of looks different. And so to me that just seemed like there’s this tipping point when our bench is starting to reflect our community. And maybe you’re not the only woman in the room, which I know you’ve spent a long part of your career doing just that. So can you tell me a little bit about that transition in your career and when all of a sudden not, maybe not all of a sudden, but more women are practicing with you, more women are side by side with you wearing a robe and hopefully the parties and attorneys appearing in front of you are becoming more diverse as you practice longer.

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

So Erich, it’s kind of been slow, but in more recent times it’s just been so exciting being with you four is just gives me invigoration. It’s so wonderful to see not only just women lawyers, but smart, accomplished trial lawyers that are females. I mean, it’s still not anywhere near the majority of our practice of our profession. But yeah, I’ve always been the third. So I’ve never been the first woman on any court, but I’ve certainly been many times the only woman at the table or the only woman in the Courtroom. But it’s been exciting to see more women join the bench to work with more women side by side as judges. I can’t say it’s more exciting to have a longer line at the women’s restroom

When I go to conferences, but it used to be even when I go to national meetings, you were still a distinct minority. But I think our profession has improved. I think the lawyers and the bench have improved because we now have this great resource of our female minds at the table. People ask me, what’s changed at the Supreme Court now that you’ve got a majority female? And I’ll start off with a joke and I’ll say, well, it’s the rule of force. So anytime there’s four votes for any one idea, then that’s the majority view. And after the recent Barbie movie, we voted to change the roads from black to pink.

Erica Slater:

Sorry with that.

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

Just kidding.

But I think it’s a kinder, gentler court. Court. People aren’t as argumentative. They’re more professional in their disagreements. For example, nowadays when it’s someone’s birthday on the court during our monthly meeting, we’ve already pre-signed a card for that judge. Oh, that’s nice. You’ve heard of the business, small cakes, the huge cupcakes. We have those brought in and we sing to the judge whose birthday is. So it’s kind of like, remember you brought treats in grade school, we bring treats in. That’s precious. So those kinds of things just didn’t happen when I first got there at the Supreme Court, then I was two women out of seven, judge Stiff and myself. So it’s a good court and every court I’ve worked on, we’ve always gotten along. And the Supreme Court, my colleagues have always been cordial and not like the days when I was a LawClerk there. Unfortunately the judges were very at each other’s throats. Some didn’t speak to each other, some. It was very divided and it was a hard time to be around professionals like that.

Liz Lenivy:

I’m so glad to hear that because I mean, I’m entering into my 10th year of practice now and I feel like I hear older attorneys bemoan or complain about the loss of professionalism in the practice. And I don’t have that frame of reference. I don’t know what it was like 20 years ago, 30 years ago, what have you. But I have always felt, at least in St. Louis in particular, that we have a very professional cordial bar here. No, have I had bad run-ins with certain attorneys? Absolutely. And they go in my little book and I never forget any bad interaction. And you talk about

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

Them anonymously on the podcast.

Liz Lenivy:

Of course, any bad interaction, I just kind of pull out my little notebook. I’m like, this is going to be on the podcast one day, you wave, we’ll change your name, but no other details. But I’ll say overall, I’ve really enjoyed my practice. A lot of people ask me, a lot of women ask me, it just seems so aggressive and so mean and how do you get through this day without feeling bad all the time. And honestly, I feel like for the most part, we are pretty kind to each other. And maybe it’s because of the people that I work with and we’ve just cultivated this here as well. I think that that’s something that my mentors have always taught me is your reputation is really important and you don’t want to get that reputation of being a difficult attorney to work

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

With

Liz Lenivy:

For lots of different reasons. You’re right,

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

You’re right. Once you get that stink on you, it’s hard to get it off and it’s easy to acquire and hard to lose. And judges are big gossips. We come off the bench and someone will say, has anybody seen that attorney before? They look really good. Never heard them argue before. Yeah, we know them. Or it could be just the other way. I’ve had them before and it’s been not a positive situation. And so your reputation is the first thing you’ve got.

Liz Lenivy:

And Judge, I’ve kind of touched on this a little bit now, about the importance of the mentors that I’ve had. I know that you are the first lawyer in your family. I’m also the first lawyer in my family. Are we all first lawyers in our families?

Erica Slater:

I have an uncle and a cousin, but in my nuclear family, yes. Okay. My brother is a lawyer, so I guess barely

Liz Lenivy:

Beat you to it. Yeah, five

Erica Slater:

Years. Yeah, it’s the same level. Doesn’t really count.

Liz Lenivy:

But I think especially too, and I don’t know where your family practices Erica, but in Iowa, Louis, Iowa

Erica Slater:

Where Iowa, Iowa,

Liz Lenivy:

That’s a million miles away. Right,

Erica Slater:

Exactly.

Liz Lenivy:

But something that I’ve had to rely on because I’ve sort of been figuring this out as I go along and I have to rely on my mentors and the people that I’ve developed in my network. And I’m just curious, judge, is there anyone in particular in your career, either when you were in private practice or your career on the bench that just really stands out to you as a great mentor and why that was?

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

So, most of my mentors during my lifetime have been men. I have to tip my hat, but for men seeing something in me or helping me or encouraging me, I wouldn’t be where I am. Whether it was the legislators I worked for, the congressman, I worked for my law partner, the judge I clerked for. All of these men have been very helpful and instrumental to me in my career. But as far as a woman, it wasn’t until I heard about Anne Covington, who was the first woman on the Supreme Court of Missouri that my life just kind of turned around like wow. There is a woman who is wearing a black robe, is very well respected. She was the first woman on the Supreme Court in 1989, actually I think December of 89. So 1990, January might’ve been her first month on the job, but she was the right woman at the right time.

She didn’t come in complaining and trying to find discrimination in things that maybe she had been treated differently on. She came in and tried to get along, and if you know her, she’s got a very soft-spoken feminine way about her, but a strong voice. And she’s smart and she did a great job. And because of her demeanor and her actions, she opened the door for the rest of us. And she was very helpful to me and many other women. So we all like to think of Anne as being kind of our godmother, still keep a good relationship with her today and still ask her questions. And she’s still my mentor and how lucky we were are to have Judge Covington is such a great role model for us. Is

Erica Slater:

She jealous of you leading a female majority court?

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

You know what, I doubt it. Of course, she wouldn’t be the newest member of our court. The fourth woman was her former LawClerk.

Erica Slater:

Oh, judge Gooch,

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

Judge Ginger Gooch was Judge Covington’s last LawClerk before she retired. Wow. So Judge Co couldn’t be more proud. Duch is swearing. It’ll be at the end of August and I’m sure Judge Covington will have a starring role in that ceremony. But no, so we all try to get together. So if you add up on your fingers the number of women that have ever served on the Supreme Court since Ann, the first one to today, it’s seven. And so we took a picture of all seven of us. It was December, January, sitting on the bench in different configurations like by order of appointment this way, and then order of appointment by Ann being the Chief justice and the rest of us on this way. And so anyway, it’s hopefully we’ll get some more pictures when Anne’s there for Judge Gucci’s swearing in late in August.

Erica Slater:

Are we all going to get a copy of that pictures so we can pretend like that’s when there are

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

Seven? That’s a great idea. Well, you think about it right now, the Missouri Bar, the past president was a female. The current president is a female, the vice president is a female. The president elect is a female. The executive director is a female. The secretary of theBar is the clerk of our court, which is a female. And then myself being the Chief Justice on theBar renewal card, when you get your back in January showing you paid your dues. And I framed that little insert, if you will, because it’s like a rare moment. And hopefully it’s not the only moment in time. Hopefully it’ll just continue to be more common and not noteworthy. People ask me, what’s one of the most proudest times you’ve been in? I was in tears when our last two women came aboard. I mean, it was that moving for me because I never thought in my professional lifetime that it would be a majority on that bench. I mean, I sat there as a LawClerk looking at those seven old white men thinking that’s just the way it was. But to think that it’s turned around that much is very moving. And it makes me very proud.

Amy Gunn:

I think you should be proud because you are a humble person and you’ve talked about those that have gone before you and have set the path. But from my perspective, I consider you a mentor. And I know I would venture to guess every woman attorney that knows you or knows of you would consider you a mentor because you have taken your positions and done so well with them. And I think with women, it is a bigger task to be successful in an important position because it’s not just about getting there, it’s about maintaining it in a way that you leave the door open for other women. So you talk about Judge Covington and how she was the first, but also was so, I dunno what the right word, inviting, but easy to get along with.

And that’s what you learned, but it’s also fits your personality. So to be in that position and to keep that door open for those who have come behind you, you Own that. And I feel very strongly about it. And I think those of you who know you want to emulate that I count myself on that list because it’s more than just getting the appointment. It’s more than just writing good opinions. It’s being the face of the court and being a face of the court that people appreciate and look up to. And you’ve certainly done that. No,

Chief Justice Mary Rhodes Russell:

Thank you, Amy. I don’t deserve that. But thank you. And I’m just lucky to be where I am and happy to see more women like you all moving up the ranks too. And so proud of you all.

Amy Gunn:

Well, thank you. And being in your position, I think it does give us confidence to follow along. Maybe not all the way to the Supreme Court, but certainly. But why not? I don’t feel that’s closed off. I don’t feel closed off to that. And we take that seriously in this group too. We consider this podcast as one of the things that we want. The biggest purpose of this podcast is so women in legal profession, otherwise don’t feel alone in some of the things that they go through. And so having you as a guest to also tell our

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