Extraordinary Courage in the Face of Injustice

Episode Notes

Transcript

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Intro:   This is Workers Comp Matters hosted by attorney Alan S. Pierce.  The only Legal Talk Network Program that focuses entirely on the people and the law, in workers’ compensation cases.  Nationally recognized trial attorney, expert and author, Alan S. Pierce is a leader committed to making a difference with Workers Comp Matters.

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Judson S. Pierce:  Hello, and welcome to another edition of Workers Comp Matters in the Legal Talk Network. My name is Jud Pierce.  I am here with my co-host, and founder of this show, Alan Pierce.

Alan S. Pierce:  Hey Jud, how are you? Our, guest, Ginny. Nice to meet you.

Judson S. Pierce:  Yes, we have a special guest today too, Ginny Mohler is here with us. Just by way of background, Jinny is a director, a writer. She probably has a lot of other credits to her name, and I’ll let her get into that briefly. Ginny, welcome to the show.

Ginny Mohler:  Hi, thank you for having me.

Judson S. Pierce:  One of the reasons we wanted to reach out to you was because of the subject matter of the film that came about, and launched on, and it’s now widely seen on Netflix. It’s called Radium Girls. Can you tell us a little bit about how you came upon this subject, and where it brought you?

Ginny Mohler:  Yeah, absolutely. So, Radium Girls is a film, it’s now in Netflix. It’s a project I co-directed with Lydia Dean Pilcher, who also produced. She produced with Emily McEvoy, and I wrote the film with Brittany Shaw. It was a labor of love for many years, and was actually nine years ago that I stumbled across the story of the Radium Girls when I was working as a production assistant, and a researcher on a documentary about the Manhattan Project. I was reading a biography, I thought, it was actually in the section about health insurance for project workers on the Manhattan Project, which of course, connects to workers’ comp. And they said, as they were considering how to structure that, and what safety measures to put in place, they said, they all remembered the tragic dial painters of the first World War. And at that time had never heard of a dial painter. I didn’t know what tragedy had happened to them. I didn’t know how it connected to the first World War, and so, I just Googled tragic dial painters World War I, and found myself on a Wikipedia page called Radium Girls, and I just, I couldn’t believe the story that I was reading.

Alan S. Pierce:  And for our listeners out there, this is really the story of the history of occupational diseases in Massachusetts, and more importantly, how the law did not protect victims of occupational diseases. In fact, at the time of the Radium Girl story, occupational diseases were not even covered under what we had then as a very new workers’ compensation law, which really began right after the century, around 1910, 1911, 1912. So, the Radium Girls is the story of these girls who primarily, I guess, were painting the dials on watches and clocks with the paint that glows in the dark, and they got sick. And the story of how these dots were connected is the story of Radium Girls. So, this is really a story for occupational health professionals or those of us who represent injured workers in general and Ginny, perhaps you can flesh out. Once you were we’re captivated by this story, tell us what that story was, and why it was so interesting to you?

Ginny Mohler:  Well you know, one of the first things that jumped out was that, this was happening to teenage girls, to young women, that this is happening in the 1920s, and it was not, I mean you know, occupational health and safety is not something that was a field I was really aware of. I went to film school, I studied comparative literature, here and there I studied physics, but suddenly, understanding that there was this side to the roaring 20s that I had never thought about, and of course, it’s not that just the 20s, it’s the industrialization leading up to the 20s. But that, here were these women who were absorbing pop culture. They were, you know, there’s cinema. They’re so much ahead of them, and then they started to get sick. And then they put together the pieces of what’s going on, and then, they are faced with a legal system that does not support them, and a company that does not support even the truth of what they’re saying, you know. There’s so much denial, and distortion, and kind of deliberate misinformation that’s happening. But even within the legal system, and you have the statute of limitations, and they’re in New Jersey, and you know, this is something where they are getting in sick years after the initial exposure, and the primary exposure; and they’re faced with this conundrum of being bankrupted by medical bills, and dying before the cases even reach the courts sometimes, and a system that’s really failing them. And how do you stand up to that? And so, that was the question of the film.

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Alan S. Pierce:  Yeah, and actually the mechanism of their exposure is interesting and different. Usually, when we think of occupational exposures, we are breathing the air that may have air quality issues. If you work around asbestos, you would contract asbestos particles in your lungs, and 15 or 20 years later, you would get sick. If you’re working in the textile industry, you could get other types of lung diseases by breathing the air and chemicals et cetera.  Tell us what the Radium Girls were actually doing, and how they were exposed? Because even to the ordinary layman, it’s a fascinating story, a sad story but a fascinating story.

Ginny Mohler:  They were lip pointing, which means that, they were after each brushstroke, they were putting the brush in their mouth, and pointing it straight. So, they were ingesting the radium paint in addition to being surrounded with the dust, and that actually is a complication that you know, we don’t really go into in the film in detail, and it happens later. But once the company said,” Fine, fine. We’ll stop lip pointing.” And the women continued to get sick and they say, “Oh, but we stopped lip pointing. There’s there is no more harm.” And that’s when, you know, the particle, the particle matter in the air becomes an issue.

Alan S. Pierce:  Let me understand, so they were using these very, very, fine paint brushes. Probably, not unlike what maybe some people will put on their eyeliner with. So, it’s a very, very small brush tip that we’d have to moisten after each stroke, by putting in your lips, and licking it. The paint that was going on the dials that glowed, the chemical that made it glow was radium.

Ginny Mohler:  Yeah. It was radioactive.

Alan S. Pierce:  Radioactive. Yeah.

Ginny Mohler:  They were eating radioactive paint basically.

Alan S. Pierce:  So, when they started to get sick, what did it looked like?

Ginny Mohler:  Well, it looked like sometimes, it would start with a toothache, with losing teeth with dental problems, anemia.  As it progressed, necrosis of the jaw when dentists wrote about how he went to remove a tooth from a radium girl, and part of her jaw came out with it, you know? But it didn’t necessarily look the same in every worker, and again, that was one of the ways that the company pushed back against the accusation that it was harmful because they said, “if it was harmful, it would look the same in everybody.”

Judson S. Pierce:  All right. One of the chilling points in the movie, and there are many of them, is at the very, very end, where the written words that, if you put a Geiger counter over the graves of these girls, that it would still be ticking, and it’s just such a visceral reaction to the idea of thinking about that, that their bones still have it in them. How did it affect you when you were going through the process of making this film? Emotionally, how did it resonate with you, the storyline. It must have been hard?

Ginny Mohler:  Well, you know, I think especially working on it over so many years, I feel like, I had my own coming of age as a filmmaker, and a storyteller, and a person who’s interested in history, and the legal system, and the history of the legal system, which is something that kind of came into sharper focus, the more we worked on the film. But you know, anyway the film, it’s a story of two sisters. The adaptation that we did of the history. and the younger sister has this real awakening you know. She wants to be an actress, she wants to have this glamorous life, and then her sister gets sick, and she fights for her sister, and then, she also has to come to terms with the fact that, it’s a really big fight, and then, it’s not just this fight. There are other chemicals, and there are people in the film who talk to her about that. It’s not just the radium factory, right? There’s the mercury, and the phosphorus, and the asbestos. And so, it’s really her coming into understanding of where she can play a role within that world. And I feel like that was an experience that I had too. There are so many stories to tell. There are so many stories of injustice to tell, and then also of the way people do pretty extraordinary things in the face of that. And I learned a lot both from the process of making the film, and also from getting to know the radium girls, and their advocates.

Alan S. Pierce:  And of course you know, Hollywood had a fascination with this general topic. We’ve seen over the last 20 or 30 years, films like Silkwood or Erin  Brockovich or A Civil Action where, there is a group of people getting sick, and then is a product, or a manufacturing plant, or a facility in which dangerous products are being used, and connecting those two, and seeking economic redress is a, “David and Goliath” story. Some of the times, it doesn’t have a happy ending.

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Alan S. Pierce:  So, tell us from a legal perspective, once it became obvious or as close to obvious, as it could be, that the people that were tipping their paint brushes with radium were getting diseases of the jaw, and the teeth, and of the body. What was the process? We didn’t have workers’ comp back in the 20s that covered occupational diseases? You had to resort, I guess, to the Court system. So, where did these sisters, and their co-workers find themselves legally?

Ginny Mohler:  They went to Court. It took them a longtime to find a lawyer that was certainly something that we grappled with in writing the screenplay. And then, in editing the film is, how do you convey the passage of so much time? There was this the delay in the court case, was a very deliberate strategy by the radium company that, I think you know, is no secret, but that continues to be a strategy. You know, they were counting on the women dying before some of them got to Court. So, there are also many settlements made directly from the company to some of the workers ahead of the trial, in which you know, I think, sort of the equivalent of an NDA was employed, so.

Alan S. Pierce:  That would be a Non-Disclosure Agreement.

Ginny Mohler:  Yeah. And so, there’s actually there’s radium dial factory in Connecticut, the same time as the New Jersey factory. And in New Jersey, the Consumers League, the New Jersey chapter of the Consumers League was very active, and they became very active in the Radium Girls’ case, and advocating for the women and finding public support, and journalists to write about them. And really, marshaling this community behind them of trained, and practiced activists especially when it came to worker’s safety. In Connecticut, that structure wasn’t there in the same way, and many of the Connecticut cases were settled quietly with some intermediaries who actually show up on the New Jersey case as well, but they’re not successful in silencing the women in New Jersey in the same.

Alan S. Pierce   How many radium factories or watchmaking factories were there?

Ginny Mohler:  You know, there were many. I don’t have an exact number. There was there were a big one in Illinois, Connecticut, New Jersey. I believe Georgia. It was you know; it was a popular consumer good that came out of the wartime manufacturing.

Alan S. Pierce:  And this this was primarily wrist watches, or did it have another non-consumer use for bigger clocks, and things like that that would glow in the dark?

Ginny Mohler:  I believe it was primarily wristwatches, but you know, it came out of, the reason that it’s connected to the first World War is that, the radium paint, the world’s first glow-in-the-dark paint was discovered, invented right before the first World War, and so it was used on the wristwatches that were issued to the soldiers so that they could see what time of night it was. And then, it was also used on the instrument panels in the first warplanes.

Alan S. Pierce:  What if you know, if this came out of your research, what did the employers that utilized radium-based paint know about the health hazards associated with radium? I mean, we used to go and have our feet, and you’re old enough, and I am. Do you remember going to a shoe store, and having your feet x-rayed, and there were some concerns about the exposure to x-rays would cause some harm. So, how knowledgeable were the watch manufacturers about the hazards of radium paint?

Ginny Mohler:  I think it’s complicated. I think, I mean that’s the thing is, and we try and show this in the film is that, radium when it was discovered, and radioactivity at the time in the 20s, in many ways was considered to be a miracle elixir, a miracle cure. It had been shown that it could treat cancer, some forms of cancer. There were many consumer products that featured radium, whether or not they actually had radium in them is another question. But they said, they did. Face creams, and toothpaste, and chocolate, and things that were most you know supposed –

Judson S. Pierce:  Water.

Ginny Mohler:  And water, and the radium water did have radium, and it was very expensive. And you know, there’s one case in which, a very wealthy man died, got sick from drinking the water, and his lawsuit is a fascinating parallel to the Radium Girls’ trial because it was happening at the same time, and it could not have gone more differently you know? You had a company in there saying, “It’s our fault. We’re so sorry. What can we do?” Which is not what happened with the girls.

Judson S. Pierce:  Why don’t we take a quick break right now to hear from our sponsor, and we will be right back, with our special guest, Ginny Mohler.

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Judson S. Pierce:  And we’re back. Ginny, your film it was meant to be a depiction of what really happened to these girls in I guess, the 20s, right? The Jazz Age.

Ginny Mohler:  Yeah.

Judson S. Pierce:  The costumes were right on the mark. I mean, the setting, and the scenery, and the acting, and the way the actors talked, was all just incredibly right in the mark. So, wonderful job. Especially, since this was really your first big film, right?

Ginny Mohler:  Yes. This was my first feature.

Judson S. Pierce:  Yeah. It was fabulous, and one thing that I thought really stood out too, was the archival footage you put into the film. Where did you find it? What sense did you want to get from the audience watching, and seeing it sort of interspliced with the live action?

Ginny Mohler:  Yeah. So, you know, my background is in archival research. Like as I mentioned, I stumbled across the Radium Girl story while doing research for this documentary on the Manhattan Project pretty early in my career. A couple years after I graduated from film school, and as we were writing the screenplay, the archival was always in our mind as a way to fold in the reality of the time, you know? There’s incredible footage from that time first of all. And I think, to really drive home the point of, this happened, and it happened in the context of a wider world. So, in some of the archival you’ll see, protests and you’ll see, you know, the minutia. You see people getting ice at the market, and then you know, on a more practical level, this is a very low budget period piece, and how do you create that sense of scope, and the wider world, with you know, limited resources, and wanting to really focus our resources on you know, the scenes, and the set in the world of the most immediate world of the film. So, it was something there.

Judson S. Pierce:  And yeah, that really brings it back to the viewer watching it in today’s world, in today’s landscape, and that it came out last year during the tumultuous year we all were experiencing, and still are, and how the story of what they were dealing with back then, in terms of the power, and control, and like my father said, “David versus Goliath” still happening today. And one of the characters later in the film, when I think it was Joe’s sister, Bessie.

Ginny Mohler:  Yeah.

Judson S. Pierce:  She was shaking her head about the settlement discussions, and I want this to stop, and the woman, I think the Consumer League lady says, “It never ends.” And that, isn’t that true? I mean this sort of we’re playing the same arguments over, and over again throughout history.

Ginny Mohler:  Yeah, to me that’s a really special moment in the film, when our protagonist is, I mean I guess, this is a big spoiler. But also, it’s history. So, I don’t know how much you can spoil it. But you know, she’s devastated. She wanted to change the whole system, and they changed a little bit.

Judson S. Pierce:  A little bit.

Ginny Mohler:  A little bit, and that was something for me as a writer that we really reckoned with, and I think, this connects back to the question of the “David and Goliath” films and the Erin Brockovich, you know, movies. As the writer, like I wanted to give her that ending, you know? I wanted her to have changed the system forever. To have changed the laws, and you know, suddenly all toxins are out of all workplaces, which you know obviously, they still aren’t.

Judson S. Pierce:  Radium was used until the 1970s.

Ginny Mohler:  It was. It was  You know, and so, back to the question of, “It never ends.” For me, it was really amazing to find this moment with Bessie at the end of the film where she says, “So, this is how it ends” to the activist who’s been supporting them, and the activist says, “You know,” I’ll quote her verbatim.

Judson S. Pierce:  You can do that.

Ginny Mohler:  She says, “Can I tell you secret that I learned a long time ago, it never ends.” Which might sound you know, pessimistic on the surface, but in that moment for Bessie, it’s saying, “This is not the only fight you will ever get to fight.” 

Judson S. Pierce:  Yeah. It was a lesson. It wasn’t just a very, very damning word. It was just like, a teaching moment for her, and she grew up there, and you could see the arc of her growth come to fruition in that scene, which I thought was really well done.

Ginny Mohler:  That scene is a complicated one, and really meaningful because it’s the moment of victory, and also, the moment of like profound disappointment. And for some characters, it’s victory. And –

Judson S. Pierce:  Right.

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Ginny Mohler:  And so, holding both of those in that moment, and then of course later you learn that, the architect of the settlement is —

Alan Pierce:    The investor —

Ginny Mohler:  –connected to the Radium Company.

Judson S. Pierce:  Yeah. That was a big surprise.  And I know we represent injured workers. That’s what our practice is.  A lot of our listeners are attorneys for injured workers in the United States, and a lot of times, they want their day in court.  They want to be heard.  They want the judge to know what harm they’ve suffered because they’re casualties of injury, right?  But, sometimes, the lawyers get together and say, this settlement is in your best interests and settlements aren’t always that glamorous moment of justice, right?  Settlements hit you in the gut and two people paying or accepting less than what they feel they’re entitled to and deserve.  That is part of the law as well.

Alan Pierce:  It’s mitigating risk the uncertainty of where litigation will go and what a bad decision will do to other people following.  You know, when I first heard the story of Radium Girls, I immediately thought of two events.  One of which is the story of — again, mostly young girls, although not exclusively young girls, but at the triangle shortwaist factory in New York City, who perished I think about 147 or so in a tragic fire and this was in 1911.  At that time, there were no workers’ comp laws.  There were no real occupational safety protocols in any event and that was a watershed moment in both labor relations, safety as well as a redress for injuries occurring in the workplace.  And it still took acts of congress and acts of legislature and acts of the supreme courts in the United States and various states to compensate people who are hurt that way.

Alan Pierce:  The other thing that I thought of and, again, Jud and I practice in Salem, Massachusetts.  Salem is known obviously as a maritime port city has a witch history in terms of our country’s history.  But back in the — when you speak of Manhattan project in the late 30s and early 40s, we had and up until probably in the 80s, we had a fluorescent light manufacturing plant, the Sylvania Electric Company.  And both here and General Electric in Lynn manufactured fluorescent bulbs and back in the 30s and 40s before the Manhattan project where they needed chemicals and beryllium for the atomic bomb, they used beryllium powder to coat the inside of the clear glass to make it frosty so for these fluorescent lights.  Unbeknownst to them, this beryllium would be breathed by the workers or even the workers’ spouses who wash their clothes and would inhale the powder and because it had a similar — and I did not do well in chemistry in high school, but it had a similar radioactivity component.  Hence, the Manhattan project, these people got sick.  And until they were able to diagnose it as beryllium poisoning, they called it sarcoidosis or sarcoid disease and, in fact, they started calling it Salem sarcoid because there was a cluster here in Salem and it really took an investigation to link the fact that most, if not all, of the people sick had a connection to the Sylvania plant.  So, I see a parallel there with these girls licking the tips of their brush’s day after day, year after year and getting sick culminating in the story.

Ginny Mohler:   It makes me think about what you asked a little while ago of how much did the company know at the time especially when things like long-term studies like to what extent could they have known.  The thing is Mohler:    that, yes, radium was considered this miracle substance, but there was a research that showed the danger.  But the research that was front and center in the public’s eye, one of the publications was just called Radium!  And it was researched about radium paid for by the radium companies.  And so, a big thing that this project has taught me is especially when it comes to — I mean, really anything but especially when you’re talking about workplace safety is like who is funding the research, who is doing the research.  Even the radium company in the 20s had a scientist who was basically on the payroll creating studies for them that they could point to say, look, it’s safe at least to, you know, balance out the studies that said this really isn’t safe and because it was so new, people didn’t know what to believe.

Alan Pierce:  Of course we’ve seen that in the tobacco litigation and everywhere that there is this blending of expertise, but the question is how independent or how impartial are the scientists who are doing these studies.  When Jud and I were talking about this, we talked about the victimization of young women and girls.  There was an effort was there not to blame their illnesses on something other than radium.

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And it sort of struck me as, perhaps, emblematic of the way women or young girls might have been treated by society.  Tell us some of the defenses medically of what the employer was offering as an alternative reason why these girls were getting sick.

Ginny Mohler:  One of the reasons was syphilis that they put forward which, you know, is sort of 1920s version of slut shaming and a diagnosis that —

Alan Pierce:  Scarlet letter.

Ginny Mohler:  Yeah, the Scarlet letter which is, you know, the previous century.  So, I think this has been going on for a really long time attempts to discredit women and to use social pressure of shame against them and prevent them from speaking out.

Alan Pierce:  And that did.  They did not want to be associated and have their morality or their health being blamed on sexually transmitted diseases as opposed to, you know, this radium they were ingesting every day.

Ginny Mohler:  Yeah.  And you know there’s documentation that the radium company in New Jersey was having the women followed to see if they could dig up anything to discredit them essentially, which still happens you know.  We’re still reading about tactics like that to discredit not just sources, but women.

Alan Pierce:  Yeah.  And I think one of the beautiful things that brings us to today’s moment is the young and the youth activists and a lot of them are female, and a lot of them are not accepting this constant barrage of, you know, male focused white male dominating society.  And that is the essence of these girls.  They were fighting for change and that really gives the viewer some optimism and some hope in an, otherwise, very, very sad story, right?

Ginny Mohler:  I mean, you have to think about what would Bessie be like on TikTok, right?  What would she be like on Twitter?  You know, I think she’d have a lot to say and —

Alan Pierce:  She would.

Ginny Mohler:  I think that they’re not so different, and I think it’s pretty cool that a lot of young people today are really carrying that spirit whether or not they know it because so many of these stories have been buried, right?  I didn’t know that there were teenage activists who were up against this type of power structure in the 20s.  I had no idea.

Alan Pierce:  And, of course, to put a further Dickensian element to this, these girls where I think paid piecework.  So, the more tips they licked and the more paint they applied, the more they get a penny a dial. I mean, it was some — you read it and it’s in today’s world it just is so abhorrent to just basic wage fairness.

Ginny Pierce:  Yeah.  I think, you know, it was one of the reasons that as a screenwriter reading their story.  It was like reading a Greek tragedy.  You know, they’re painting a substance that glows and, yet, it’s making their bones rot, the sort of the light versus the dark and then the various sort of twists and turns of the people who are on the company’s side and the way that they betray them or try not to, so.  And I do think I think the script tragic irony of the better you did at your job the more –

Alan Pierce:  Sick you got.

Ginny Mohler:  Sick you got —

Jud Pierce:  Yeah.

Ginny Mohler:  Is really twisted and tragic.

Alan Pierce:    As a lawyer, I enjoyed Doris’ line around 46 minutes and she said, “In a past life, I was a lawyer, but there was just so much shouting.  And someone who is an amateur actor with a voice and a booming voice like my father, like me, I can really relate to that line.  So, you got the lawyer line absolutely.  Right on Ginny!”

Ginny Mohler:  Thank you.  I come from a family of lawyers.

Alan Pierce:  I’m sorry.

Ginny Mohler:  So, there’s not so much shouting, but yeah, I love that moment for Doris because one of the other characters is — well, they’re talking about how they need a lawyer and how they can’t find one and they’re looking and Doris just pipes up.

Alan Pierce:  So, tell us a little bit about the film before we wrap up.  It’s on Netflix.  Is it an Indie film?  Is had been in festivals?  You’re looking for other venues for release, just kind of give us an idea of what to expect as we tune in and watch this film.

Ginny Mohler:  Yes.  So, we premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival.  We are currently available on iTunes and Amazon for purchase or rental, and we’re streaming on Netflix.  So, it’s an independent film.  It stars Joey King and Abby Quinn who are just incredible actors.  I think we’re going to see a lot more from them in the coming years.

Alan Pierce:  They’re so good.

Ginny Mohler:  They’re so good and they’re wonderful as sisters, and the film is executive produced by Lily Tomlin and Jane Wagner among others.

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Ginny Mohler:  So, it was really a group of really incredible women to work with and bring the story to life with, and I hope you enjoy it.

Alan Pierce:  Well, I’ll never forget when I brought it to the lawyers, I was so proud of this little community group and this play.  I thought it resonated so much with what we do.  And I brought it to this dinner around 2013.  It was a group of judges and lawyers from both sides, the defense and employee council and they did like an entire act.  They took like over an hour of this dinner.  And I just remember some of those defense lawyers just like putting their heads down or going out to get like a cocktail, you know, maybe not making it back because they felt kind of blamed like, oh, my god.  We’re part of this nasty business.  But really, I mean, it’s a dichotomy, but you really do need good representation on both sides because, you know, some claims aren’t as meritorious as others.  It’s clearly these claims were.  I’m happy that you brought them to light in a fashion that more people can hear and understand it and look into it more deeply.  So, I thank you so much for doing that, just a real treat to have you on the show.

Ginny Mohler:  Thank you for having me.

Jud Pierce:  And me, too.  I echo that and, at this point, Ginny, I want to wish you well.  I hope everybody that has an interest in occupational health, in justice, in worker’s comp, and in good storytelling.  Clicks on to Netflix and watch this Radium Girls.  And I hope that you have great success and let me tell you in the field of worker’s comp, there are a million stores like this.  This is just — I wouldn’t say the tip of the iceberg, but this is not unique to them or the watch factor is in Connecticut and New Jersey, but it is all over and it’s that balance of it trying to achieve production, but at the cost of human health and safety in their lives.  So, I congratulate you for a job well done and thank you for being a guest and to our listeners please tune in again and go out and make it a day that matters.  Thanks goodbye.

Outro:  Thanks for listening to Worker’s Comp Matters today on the Legal Talk Network hosted by Attorney Alan S. Pierce.  When we try to make a difference in worker’s comp legal cases for people injured at work, be sure to listen to other Worker’s Comp Matter shows on the Legal Talk Network, your only choice for legal talk.

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Podcast transcription by Tech-Synergy.com

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