Engagement for Law Firm Leadership: Get the Most From Your Team

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Managing your law practice can be challenging, marketing, time management, attracting clients, and all the things besides the cases that you need to do that aren’t billable. Welcome to this edition of the Unbillable Hour, the Law Practice Advisory podcast. This is where you’ll get the information you need from expert guests and host Christopher Anderson here on Legal Talk Network.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Welcome to The Un-Billable Hour. I am your host, Christopher Anderson. And today’s episode is, it’s a combination. It’s about you, which quite honestly, I really like the episodes about you because sometimes as business owners, we forget to focus on us and we are the reason for most of the problems in the business and of course for the success. But it’s also this episode’s also about your team. So it’s about production and really what it is about the nexus between you and your team and how you can improve your leadership skills to achieve a happier, healthier, more productive team. If you’ll remember in the main triangle of what it is that a law firm business must do, we must acquire new clients. We’ve got to then produce the results that we promised to those clients. We call that production. And we’ve got to achieve, of course, the business and professional results that caused us to run a business in the first place.

And that’s for the owners. And of course, in the middle of all of that, in the center of this triangle driving it all for better or worse, is you. And we’re going to talk today about how you can make changes to your management of yourself and your team to create a better workplace and ultimately better results for your clients. And to help me with that, because I don’t do this alone, is my guest Tracy LaLonde, and she is self-described as a trainer, a public speaker, and my favorite adjective of the year, a joy achiever. Let’s learn more about that. Tracy has more than 30 years of experience is dedicated to revolutionizing in engagement. We’re going to learn what that word means in law firms. Tracy equips law firms with tools to boost this engagement, to minimize burnout, to bolster financial performance and create a culture where people thrive. She’s setting a new standard for the legal industry, and I’m excited to have her on the show. Tracy, welcome to the Unbillable Hour.

Tracy LaLonde:

Thank you, Christopher. I’m glad to be here.

Christopher T. Anderson:

So just as a start, you said, of course this is a radio show, people can’t see us, but I see you. And the first thing is you said you have 30 years experience, which means you started this when you were like six.

Tracy LaLonde:

Exactly.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. But can you tell me what led you on this journey to be a speaker, to be a thought leader in this area of engagement, and particularly with law firms? Can you just tell us a little bit about that history?

Tracy LaLonde:

Yeah. Well, my general mantra in my career has been to help individuals become the best versions of themselves, which has led to training. I’ve been in the legal space for 24 years, having worked inside of a few firms as a professional development executive and then consulting since 2006. And so I’ve run around the industry for a long time and focused on one part of your triangle for a very long time around the clients doing business development, training and coaching. While doing all of that, I’ve also followed engagement from Gallup as well as paying attention to what creates an optimized workforce and management skills, leadership skills and engagement are all a part of that. So my personal practice has evolved over time of where I see the biggest pain points are for firms and how I can creatively help them solve them.

Christopher T. Anderson:

All right. That begs the question then. What are the biggest pain points for firms?

Tracy LaLonde:

Well, certainly your triangle hits on those. My version of the middle circle, which has you in it truly is the people aspect of it. I think sometimes we take for granted, if you will, the criticality of the humans who work in our business without them. I know this sounds trite, but we don’t have a business and we get so focused on revenue generation, client retention, financial performance, all those kinds of things that the true care and feeding of the human aspect of it falls by the wayside

Christopher T. Anderson:

And including ourselves, I think not just the team that works with us, but indeed the owners themselves and the leadership of the firms. Okay. Well, let’s jump right into it because in the introduction, I use the word engagement. Now we all know what an engagement is. Engagement is something you ask someone to marry you or an engagement is when you hire a client or an engagement is when you get a consultant in, but I think you’re using it in a different way. So in the context of engagement and you being a leader in the concept of engagement, what do you mean by that in a law firm? What is engagement? Because you talk about it as one of the biggest challenges that law firms face. So help us understand what you actually mean by that.

Tracy LaLonde:

Yeah, it’s simplest definition is the involvement, commitment, and enthusiasm that someone has for their work and workplace in everyday terms. Is someone excited to get up every day to do their job, to work for this firm? And so that’s truly fundamentally what engagement is. Now, I consider Gallup to be the preeminent leader when it comes to engagement, and I remember loving their very first book in 1999, first break, all the rules that then they turned into their Q 12 and their engagement survey. What I think is really interesting, it relates to the first question you asked is they’ve been able to tie engagement to a variety of performance metrics for all businesses. Unfortunately in the legal industry, we haven’t enthusiastically gotten our arms around this idea of doing engagement survey in part because I think we’re a little afraid of what we might find out. So we don’t have specific statistics for the legal industry, but what Gallup has shown is where it’s gone over time. And what’s really interesting is the highest it’s ever been on average in the United States at least, is 36%. By the way, we’re on a downward slope recently this year we’re down to 30%, which is the lowest in a decade that it’s ever been. But also what’s interesting, and as you mentioned about

Christopher T. Anderson:

Does, I’m sorry to interrupt, does that mean 30% of the workforce is engaged? The report’s being engaged,

Tracy LaLonde:

Correct. Only that

Christopher T. Anderson:

Sounds horrible.

Tracy LaLonde:

It is.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Sorry, I interrupted. Please continue.

Tracy LaLonde:

No, no, no. Well, let’s go there for a little bit and then I’ll go back to the point I was going to make. So that’s the fascinating thing is it’s only at 30% right Now. Imagine if we could get it higher, and I know lawyers listening will be like, well, if 36% I mentioned that’s the highest is the best, why do we bother? It’s not that much of a delta. Well, in reality, Gallup gives their exceptional workplace awards every year, and those businesses who have high engagement average 70 to 72% engagement every year. So there’s room, there’s room to grow. And what’s also interesting, if you look at the trends since they’ve been doing this since in 2000, some of the times when engagement was at its highest were 2002, 2008, and 2020, all very difficult.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Economic, economic

Tracy LaLonde:

Times. Yeah, times. And even if we think back to the pandemic in 2020, it’s not hard to figure it out. We actually started caring for ourselves and each other at a human level calling each other, Hey, are you okay? Is your family okay? The advent of virtual happy hours started that how we cared for one another completely changed, I think in lots of ways. And unfortunately, I think we’re going back to some of the old ways, which is why it’s going lower.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah, my goodness. Okay. So are there industries, just before we move on to the next point, are there industries that do better than 30%? Can you call out where’s hospitality? Where’s entertainment? Where’s Silicon Valley? How are people doing?

Tracy LaLonde:

It’s interesting. I don’t think there are industries that are standouts as good. There are definitely industries that are standouts as challenged. The medical profession, as you might guess, be Silicon Valley, very challenged. So there are standouts where it might even be worse than legal. Otherwise it’s companies that are really leading the way individually.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Cool. Well that sounds like 30, 36, but the opportunity for 70 sounds like it could really revolutionize the business. Part of what you talked about, it’s like liking to go to work, you’re calling engagement. Really just basically what we sometimes I think in my business, call playing all in and because you want to, it sounds like that might be connected also with wellness and wellbeing and then some of the stuff we’ve been talking about around that. Can you distinguish what we’re talking about engagement versus wellbeing and wellness so that we can really hone in on what we’re talking about?

Tracy LaLonde:

Sure. Well, they’re cousins, if you will, to each other. And typically they chart together. Although interestingly in 2020 was the first time where they actually split engagement, increased and wellbeing went down in part because of the way we were working. And wellbeing, its fundamental definition is physical, emotional, and mental health. I think engagement comes probably before wellbeing. Engagement has also been tied more directly to business performance than wellbeing has. And so a LM, American Lawyer Media every year does their mental health survey, and I’m waiting for this year’s results to come out, which should be shortly. And unfortunately it’s rarely good news since they’ve started it. Wellbeing continues to be a problem in this industry. And where I look at as engagement is it’s the step back because what I loved about 2020 is a lot of law firms started to focus on wellness and wellbeing and rolling out initiatives and resources and support for that. However, what it isn’t necessarily being addressed is the root causes of those wellbeing problems, which for me tie back to engagement.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Engagement. Okay. Alright. Well I think that’s very, very helpful. We are going to take a quick break here because this show exists because of some really great sponsors. And now as their turn to say a word when we come back, I want to talk to you about your hierarchy of engagement because I’m really fascinated by that. So one word from our sponsors, and we’ll be back in a sec, we are back with Tracy LaLonde and we’ve been speaking about engagement and getting a clearer understanding of what it is. And the next thing we wanted to talk about here was the hierarchy of engagement. You’ve created a chart that I’ve seen on your website since I’m referencing it if anybody wants to look, your website is joy cheever.com. Do I have that right?

Tracy LaLonde:

Correct,

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. And in this chart you have basically it’s stacked rings. It could be a pyramid, but for you it stacked rings of the hierarchy of engagement. And the first question I had before we go through what they are is it looks a lot to me like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Is there a connection between those two?

Tracy LaLonde:

There’s an influence, but not necessarily a direct connection.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Okay, cool. So maybe you start from the bottom if you will. So I’ll start the first one and then maybe you just walk us up the ladder here. In the hierarchy of engagement, the bottom rung or the bottom circle small cylinder is pay performance and perks. And that doesn’t sound to me like a very engaging topic, but it’s sort of like it’s the table stakes, right? Is that how we start?

Tracy LaLonde:

Yeah, that’s exactly it. If we don’t have that right, is going to be difficult to have high engagement

Christopher T. Anderson:

And then it works up through work life and strengths and autonomy. So why are those in that order?

Tracy LaLonde:

Well, this model came to be, if I may step back for half a moment. Yeah, yeah,

Christopher T. Anderson:

Please.

Tracy LaLonde:

Because in trying to figure out what engagement is for folks to try to help them improve and move the needle, there are a number of models out there. Gallup Ley obviously has theirs. Gartner has one, Deloitte, Harvard Business Review. And as I was looking at those, I realized none of them really addressed the client service needs and nature of what we do in law or for that matter, accounting, consulting, what have you. And so this is why I created this model because I think there are unique challenges that we face when you get into a client service business. So going back to your question, work life is next for me because that is the day-to-day experience that someone is having. That is how much work they’re working on, how stressful the deadlines are, the billable hour situation comes to play there, stress levels, are they getting time to recover or stay charged. So that’s the day-to-day experience. For me, the bottom two layers, those are the only two that I think are really critical that we aren’t if we aren’t compensating and rewarding and managing performance appropriately or within market. And then if we aren’t creating a day-to-day experience, might as well not focus on the others, other layers on the top. Sure.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Kind of like my Maslow’s hierarchy, again, if you’re not breathing, really doesn’t matter how good the food’s going to be.

Tracy LaLonde:

Exactly. So that’s why I say it’s influenced by Maslow, but then after that it shifts a little bit from there.

Christopher T. Anderson:

And I would dare say that also it would seem to me like most places that think they’re doing a good job with this, probably only focus on those first two. That’s it. Everybody stops there

Tracy LaLonde:

And they focus on them at a macro view. And yes, that’s critical policies, procedures, et cetera. However, what I also believe is a yes and is that how someone is being managed is also really critical. And that really impacts work life really impacts work life.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. So let’s walk up to the next one. So

Tracy LaLonde:

The next one is strengths. And strengths is the ability to grow and use what I refer to as your most joyous strengths. So doing the things that you really love to do on as regular basis as possible. Now the most joyous is the idea of that is I could do spreadsheets, but I’d rather stab myself in the eye. I don’t want to have to do them on a real regular basis. So I want to be focused on that. Also, what comes into strengths is boredom. Because even if I’m doing something that’s highly technical or I’m really good at, it may tire me out after a while. I may not want to do it anymore. And so that is a factor that’s in strengths too.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. Discovery responses. Everybody wants to do them. Woohoo. Alright. How about then autonomy? So we’re talking about strengths, the things you like to do, autonomy, I mean the word suggests the ability to do them the way you like to do them.

Tracy LaLonde:

Yes. And I think autonomy gets a bad rap in that leaders of the world, partners of the world think I have to give over complete control to somebody else. And that’s not what I’m referring to. I view autonomy as the opportunity to have input or influence over work and work life. So things like what assignments to take on, how many assignments to take on, the ability to meet deadlines, decision-making, where to work, when to work, all those kinds of things. So this whole return to office idea, a lot of that pushback is because we’re infringing on people’s autonomy. They’ve been doing just fine if not better, working remotely and now seemingly arbitrarily, they’re being asked to come back into the office and that is a trustee rotor, if you will, of no one’s giving them a good reason other than we say so kind of idea.

Christopher T. Anderson:

We invested in all this real estate, we got to justify it.

Tracy LaLonde:

Exactly, exactly.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Alright, the next, the top three then are care, then connection, then purpose. Those sound connected, but also distinct. So walk us through this, start with care. Once you get past autonomy, and like I said, I think you would still say, if anything beneath these fails, we don’t need to worry about the ones above. We got to get back down to strengths. We got to get back down to autonomy before we do care, connection and purpose. But tell us about care.

Tracy LaLonde:

Care is about appreciation and the ability to be your authentic self. So the buzz phrase of psychological safety comes there. So it’s being appreciated and valued for who you are and what you bring to the table. Connection is about belonging, it’s about feeling connected interpersonally with colleagues, with their bosses, with the organization, what have you. And then purpose is the ability to feel like you make a difference, understanding that your work matters and how you’re making an impact on what matters.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Does that also involve connecting to the business’s mission and the business’s impact and how you play a role in that?

Tracy LaLonde:

Absolutely.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Alright, that makes a whole lot of sense. Alright, so I love this structure. It really helps to think about things and to examine one’s own business. I will mention that on your website, joy achiever.com. Before I interviewed you, there is a quiz I guess or a survey, but it is very short for a leader to take to assess. And it really tends to assess these things where you are on them. And so I found it fun. So listeners check it out, but not now after the show. Not now. Stop. Don’t after the show. Alright. What are the traps, what are the problems that legal professionals encounter that? Because one of the buzzwords these days, we talked about wellness, but one of the buzzwords lately is burnout. And to me the burnout seems to be a failure of all the things you and I were just talking about, why does that happen? What are the traps or what are the failures here that lead to that?

Tracy LaLonde:

You’re right in that a lot of the elements of engagement can lead to a burnout situation. And what’s interesting is many people think that burnout is simply about exhaustion. And it’s not only exhaustion, it is one of three pillars. The other two is cynicism and then inefficacy

Christopher T. Anderson:

Exhausted from working my but off. I’m not sure I’m making any difference in the world. What’s the cynicism statement?

Tracy LaLonde:

I’m not being rewarded or valued with promotion. Increase additional responsibilities, more autonomy,

Christopher T. Anderson:

Therefore, and nobody cares.

Tracy LaLonde:

And nobody cares. There you go.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Exactly. I got it. Yeah, yeah. So I’m exhausted. I’m not really making a difference and nobody cares about me anyway. Yep. That’s pretty horrible place to be.

Tracy LaLonde:

It is a horrible place to be. And remember, only 30% of people are engaged and burnout is really high.

Christopher T. Anderson:

And that’s the legal profession. So what are we doing wrong? Because back to the wellness and the initiatives, right? We talk about problems that lawyers have. I mean problem, the legal profession and other professions that you mentioned have substance abuse problems, have self-harm problems. What’s going on? Why are we failing so badly?

Tracy LaLonde:

Yeah, I think if we were to focus more on the work life layer or driver, we would help things a lot. In particular, I think there are three things going on. One is this heightened ASAP mentality. So because we are in a service business, we are tending to default that every response needs to be ASAP, which leads to number two is an inaccurate perception of expectations of clients from clients. I was delivering a workshop last summer and I had in-house counsel in the room as well as law firm partners in the room. And I asked in-house counsel, I said, raise your hand if you expect your lawyers to be available 24 7 and to respond immediately and it would have to be a women’s program. One woman kind of raised her hand, she was sheepish about it. And I said, it’s okay if that’s your expectation, raise your hand.

No one else raised her hands, but yet we operate as if we need to be available 24 7 and we need to respond to things immediately. And when I went back to nasa, a woman who did raise her hand, I said, what are your thoughts? And she said, well, I don’t expect it all the time, but when we’re in the throes of a deal or we’re leading up to a trial. And I said, of course. I said, however we have perceived that those are the expectations of our clients and they’re not exactly accurate. And then third, and this is not only about responsiveness and availability, but just generally around exhaustion or cynicism is there’s a fear in our business to express weakness of any kind. And so reaching out to say, Hey, I need a break or I want to do something else, is there room within the system to do this is just not often met with open ears or an open mind

Christopher T. Anderson:

Probably because of the first thing. And they had a lot of culture there too. And what’s funny about it, as you describe that mismatch between client’s, actual expectations and what we think they are, let’s face it. The truth is that we train them that way. What do you see in competitive materials when a law firm’s trying to win business from another law firm? We respond fast, right? That’s the thing. Not we do better work. And so we build that, we train our clients and then we believe it from ourselves. Even if we don’t do a good job at training them to expect.

Tracy LaLonde:

Well, and Christopher, I am not telling people to not be responsive. That is not the answer. What I’m trying to encourage people to do is to be responsive, but instead assess urgency. So when that message comes in on Friday at five, instead of automatically yourself responding or putting your team through their paces to get a response out, simply asking, is this something that you need today or can we get it to you on Monday?

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah. Or even, I mean I’ve taken my team to actually take it one step further and say, in the normal course we will be able to deliver this to you by the end of business Monday. Is that okay? Rather than ask them, a lot of people will say yes if you say, do you need this today? Yes,

Tracy LaLonde:

Right,

Christopher T. Anderson:

True. Is Monday okay? Sure.

Tracy LaLonde:

Yeah.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Alright. So I hope we haven’t really bummed everybody out because we’re going to take a break here and I don’t want people to go into this break going, oh my God, it’s also terrible because we’re now going to talk, we’re going to come back and talk a little bit about what we can do about this. But first a quick word from our sponsors and then we’ll be right back. And we are back once again with Tracy LaLonde, trainer, public speaker, and Joy achiever. So I want to just address one more cause and then we’re going to take the upswing and talk about some strategies and solutions and that one more cause because the name of the show here is The Un-Billable Hour. But also because in my businesses we are actually out there every day trying to slay the billable hour. We believe it is the root of many evils. But let’s talk about it here as a contributing factor to burnout. What can you talk about The billable hour and the lack of engagement and the burnout factors that we’ve been discussing.

Tracy LaLonde:

The billable Hour, at least in my lifetime, I think is never going to go away. Speak clear about that. However, the hyper emphasis on the billable hour I hope will change of, what do I mean by that? One of the things that I like to talk about is yes, that’s critical because it’s how we keep the lights on. However, I don’t want it to be the only thing. I want it to become a yes and situation. And I want what we reward and what we highlight and what we exalt as exemplary to not just be about billable hours. So instead it’s about the value or the contribution or the output that someone creates and elevating that as part of the discussion and as what’s rewarded. We know, let’s be candid, what gets rewarded gets done. And so by making it only about the billable hours, we’ve created this conundrum for lots of folks that’s exacerbating burnout, low engagement rates, et cetera.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah, no, it’s exactly right. And if we want to also talk about doing a better job for our clients and getting better client results, like clients really want results. They don’t care how many hours it took to get ’em, oh, it took you 10 hours, that’s better than if it took you eight. What Don says, that’s not what they want. They want the result. And so yeah, I agree with you. We’re not getting away from it entirely anytime soon. But we can take little steps. And I think it does start with refocusing on outcomes because once we do that, the absurdity of the billable hour becomes more apparent. Alright, now we’re going to talk about strategies. What can we do to improve, get from that 30 in the direction of the 70 as a engagement score? How can our listeners, leaders of law firms encourage engagement in their own teams?

Tracy LaLonde:

There are a large number of things that leaders or simply managers of people can do. To give you a couple examples. One is to, this is going to sound funny, but enable better deadline management. How to do that I think is that we need to have more forthcoming conversations or transparent conversations with our clients about that. Much like you said, Hey, I’m going to offer up Monday as a response time to not just the client gives us X deadlines and so therefore we have to accept it. So to have it be a discussion, number two, to also involve our teams in deadline setting and or how we’re going to meet the deadline instead of just saying, this is it, deal with it. It’s, Hey, the client wants this deadline. Can we manage it? Or what could we do? Or what resources do you need?

Christopher T. Anderson:

And I guess having that culture of being able to say no.

Tracy LaLonde:

Yes, yes. Now you have to be very deferential and how you say, no, we all know that, but yes, to make it okay that folks can push back. Another example is in the strengths category, is encouraging and enabling people to actually take training. Given that I have run the run around the professional development world for so long and am a consultant to them, I can’t tell you how many times the PD folks have put on a training program and they get 20% of the attendance that they expected.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Exactly. And why? Because people are on deadline.

Tracy LaLonde:

They’re on deadline, and their leader is not prioritizing that they attend, they’re wanting them to be on call. And so folks aren’t attending another in the care space is this idea of being authentic and psychological safety. So that means enabling everyone regardless of work style, personality style, et cetera, to make a contribution. And in a very straightforward, simple way, that means if you are having a meeting over Zoom because you have a distributed workforce, enabling the folks who don’t necessarily speak up on the Zoom to engage via chat or pausing to ask people their perspectives or their opinions. It’s really Christopher, it comes down to just some simple day-to-Day things that if we start doing more of those is going to improve the whole situation.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense. I think those are some great examples. So as we get close to wrapping it up, can you, without naming names or whatever, but can you talk to us about how you’ve seen or helped some law firms to do this well? Some examples of how some firms have started this journey towards a higher engagement score.

Tracy LaLonde:

Well, for some they are actually using engagement surveys that really get to the heart of the issue. And the few that I know are using Gallup in particular, which I really like Gallup’s model because it’s very clear in the outcomes that you receive. So I applaud them for that. Two, I have clients who are hiring me just to come talk about the word to its partnership ranks because folks don’t really know what it is. They know it when they see it or they know what disengagement is when they see it. But it’s this kind of amorphous word that they just need to socialize as, Hey, you now need to care if you’re going to be a manager of people in this organization. There’s another firm that has a completely remote office unquote office. So they have just like their brick and mortar offices, they have their virtual office and it’s led by an actual office leader.

And I believe they record p and l for that office. And they’re very intentional around keeping people connected and doing things as an office. So they’re treating it just like a brick and mortar office, but people are virtual, which I think is really fascinating. And to their credit, they were creating this idea before the pandemic started, so they were way ahead of everybody else. So those are some examples of what I’m seeing. And the final thing is firms need to invest in management training beyond delegation and feedback. If you notice, that’s not a part of my model because I think that’s one of those table stakes that everybody needs to do well, and recognizing that management training isn’t fluffy, it isn’t a nice to have, it’s a have to have. So whether it’s via joy to your materials or others, just helping people be better day-to-day managers of others, I think would go a long way. I

Christopher T. Anderson:

Think that’s huge. And they have really neglected in law firms. It’s like you’re there for a while, you make partner. Oh, suddenly you manage people. Congratulations. Obviously, you have somehow absorbed those skills right from your previous managers who were awesome.

Tracy LaLonde:

Exactly.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Tracy, thank you so very much. That brings us to the end of the segment and wraps up this edition of the Unbillable Hour. I want to thank our listeners for being here, and I want to thank our guest. Our guest today. Once more time has been Tracy LaLonde, a trainer, public speaker, and Joy Achieve. You can learn more about Tracy. Well, I have no idea, Tracy, if people want to learn more because we’ve just skated over the top of this, how can they get in touch with you or your business and learn more about how they can bring this engagement to their law firm?

Tracy LaLonde:

They could go to my [email protected], J-O-Y-C-H-I-E-V-E-R, or they can find me on LinkedIn. I post regularly there as well. I also published a fair amount in law.com and today’s managing partner.

Christopher T. Anderson:

Fantastic. I hope everybody goes there because I think this is something that could really improve our industry and really make practicing law and working law firms better for everybody and for our clients too. Alright, Tracy, thanks so much. Really appreciate your time on the show.

Tracy LaLonde:

Thank you, Christopher. Appreciate it.

Christopher T. Anderson:

You bet. And of course, this is Christopher Anderson, and I look forward to being with all of you listeners next month with another great guest as we learn more about topics that help us build the law firm business that works for you. And just as a reminder, the Community Table is every third Thursday at three and on the community table, you can ask any questions you want. Again, third Thursday, every third Thursday at 3:00 PM Eastern. Until then, remember that you can subscribe to all the additions of this podcast and the community table at legaltalknetwork.com or on iTunes. Thanks for joining us. We will speak again soon.

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