For guest Jason Levin – author of “Relationships to Infinity” and founder of the firm Ready, Set, Launch – keeping in touch with past connections, friends, and mentors is a lifelong passion and the bedrock of networking and relationship development. Through his work, Levin has developed an intense interest in helping people develop and maintain personal and business relationships. Business, after all, truly comes down to who you know.
Levin’s firm Ready Set Launch applies corporate brand management principles to personal and corporate relationships. It’s the stuff they don’t teach in law school but is a pillar of any successful law firm.
Hate networking? Learn to overcome. Think you are doing a great job at networking? Maybe you aren’t. Levin helps professionals make new and maintain lifetime connections. Keeping in touch is foundational. “Let’s do lunch” and “keep in touch” have become meaningless phrases, but the art of maintaining relationships has never been more important. Go beyond social media, events, and transactions and start getting real with steps you can take right now. Today is the day. Special thanks to our sponsors LawClerk, Alert Communications, LawYaw, and Scorpion.
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Christopher T. Anderson: Before we start the show, I would like to say thank you to our sponsors, Alert Communications, LAWCLERK, LawYaw and Scorpion.
Intro: Managing your law practice can be challenging, marketing, time management, attracting clients, and all the things besides the cases that you need to do that aren’t billable. Welcome to this edition of The Un-Billable Hour, the law practice advisory podcast. This is where you’ll get the information you need from expert guests and host Christopher Anderson here on Legal Talk Network.
Christopher T. Anderson: Welcome to The Un-Billable Hour. I am your host Christopher Anderson and today’s episode is about, well, today’s episode touches on acquisition, but also production. I’ll explain in a minute as to why it’s bridging both. As you’ll remember, the main triangle of what it is that a law firm business must do, we got to do three things. One, acquire new clients, we call that acquisition. We got to produce the results that we promise to those clients, we call that production. And we got to achieve the business and professional results for you, the owner and that is what makes the triangle.
And so, today’s episode is really about people, about me, about you, about your clients, about your prospects, about your employees, about candidates, it’s about networking. My guest today is Jason Levin. He’s the author of ‘Relationships to Infinity’ and he’s also the founder of Ready, Set, launch.
Today’s episode of The Un-Billable Hour is relationships are key. Again, I’m pleased to introduce my guest, Jason Levin, again, the author of ‘Relationships to Infinity’ and founder of Ready, Set, Launch. Jason believes in the power of authentic relationships to transform careers. Based in Washington, D.C., he’s the founder of Ready, Set, Launch, LLC where he is an in-demand career and business development coach. He’s a speaker, he’s a trainer and he brings all this from broad career in brand management at Unilever, which is, if you don’t know Unilever, they own every product in the world.
He’s also been a consultant at Accenture and he’s done law firm branding sales at vault.com. He’s been helping his clients land jobs, get promotions, transition into retirement, and build professional services practices for over 11 years. He’s got a lifelong interest about keeping in touch which is why he wrote the book, ‘Relationships to Infinity.’ We are going to be talking about that.
He’s been on the board of the Capital Chapter of the Legal Marketing Association. He writes on business development and career management for Above The Law. Jason, like I mentioned before, is in Washington, D.C. He’s married to, as he describes it, I’m just making sure I’m putting these in his words, a lovely redheaded attorney and they have two adorable redheaded sons. His words, not mine, but I think it’s awesome.
Jason has served as a programming chair as I mentioned of the National Capital Local Steering Committee for the Legal Market Association and much more importantly, as far as I’m concerned, he’s the assistant coach on his son’s little league baseball team. Jason, with all of that, welcome to The Un-Billable Hour.
Jason Levin: Thank you, Chris. I appreciate you. It’s great to be here.
Christopher T. Anderson: According to your bio and what we just read, you started at Unilever. You worked at vault.com. What made you jump out and start working with individuals and with companies on this idea about networking and about career development and career coaching? Why did you make that shift?
Jason Levin: Well, I think that you can say that keeping in touch has been a lifelong interest. It’s been the running theme throughout my own career and it really started when I was in high school growing up in northern New Jersey and my dad was working in the garment center in Midtown Manhattan in Yiddish, the Schmatta business. And so, I knew a lot about bathrobes and clothing and when he lost the only job he ever had during the recession of ’89-’90, I wanted to know why.
I wanted to know why people got jobs and lost shops. Chris, if we were friends in high school, I was talking to you about the articles I was reading in Forbes and Fortune and The Wall Street Journal. If we were friends in college, I was helping you with your internship search. If we were colleagues at Unilever, you were coming to me for career advice. When I was working at Vault, it was at that moment where I’m selling to law firm professional development people and law firm career people and law firm partners on all of Vault services and people started to come to me for career advice and business development advice.
And so, after running a remote sales team for three years at Vault. I said, “You know what? I’m going to try to do something out of my own.” And I started Ready, Set, Launch 11 years ago and here I am.
Christopher T. Anderson: Just briefly, what is Ready, Set, Launch? As a business, what is its main thrust?
Jason Levin: Its main thrust is taking brand management principles I learned at Unilever. I was on Dove lotions and creams. And so, Dove body washes, Dove soaps, and so, I see my clients in my training sessions as the ability to help people with their purchase decisions. I see business development decisions and career decisions as purchase decisions.
Ready, Set, Launch has a few pillars. One is training and speaking, where I talk to law firm partners, associates, larger groups on all the different aspects of business development. There’s a coaching element, where I’m helping partners and associates with their business development needs. And the third pillar is outplacement and transition when law firms are ready to part ways with their valuable talent when things are just not working out.
Christopher T. Anderson: Cool. What I’d like to do is I mean, I think these are really important and again, a lot of what we talk about on The Un-Billable Hour is stuff that probably should have been taught in law school and wasn’t. This is certainly one of them and we’ve had a few shows about networking because I think it’s one of the things that lawyers in particular, just there’s two kinds of lawyers that I find. One is those who hate networking. That was me during my years in practice. And two, those that love it, but have no idea that they’re doing it completely wrong.
Then there’s this little microcosm of people who actually are good at it, like doing it, and do it right. Before I get into the question about what are they doing wrong, because I want you to speak to that, I want to touch base on this book, ‘Relationships to Infinity.’ You chose, not only you do in the working with clients, but you chose to write a book called ‘Relationships to Infinity,’ what drove you to do that?
Jason Levin: Actually, when I went out on my own 10, 11 years ago, I wanted to write this book. I told my wife, “The first thing I’m going to do when I go out on my own, I’m going to write a book and it’s going to be called Relationships to Infinity.” And when you start a practice, you don’t have time to write a book because you’re too busy getting clients.
I think what changed about a year and a half ago is I saw what was happening in the world when we became hybrid remote, whatever you want to call it. And people including myself, we were feeling lonely. We were feeling the impact of this isolation that was out there and all these questions around, well, how is it that we can connect and reconnect with people?
For me, I said it’s time. I feel very lucky that actually a Bloomberg reporter, a radio journalist reached out to me and said, “Listen, I just took a book class at Georgetown. I wrote a book. I think you have a book in you. Why don’t you consider this class?” And I signed up immediately.
Christopher T. Anderson: Oh, cool.
Jason Levin: And so, I wrote a book through the Creator’s Institute. It took me a year and I think the important thing in all of this is that regardless of your personality type, everybody has the capacity to connect and reconnect. And so, the main title is ‘Relationships to Infinity,’ but the subtitle is ‘The Art and Science of Keeping in Touch.’
Keeping in touch is so foundational. It’s foundational for our personal relationships. It’s foundational for our professional relationship. And so, often, when I’m talking with my attorney clients, I said, “Well, let’s talk about keeping in touch and what does that mean to you and how do you connect and reconnect with the people that are in your world personally and professionally.”
And then, they’re drawn into, well, wait a minute. What is this keeping in touch? All of a sudden, there’s a whole other conversation that opens up.
Christopher T. Anderson: Yeah, because I mean, I remember when I was younger, I don’t hear people say it. Now that I think about it, now that I use those words, when I was younger, when you would leave your family, you’d say goodbye to your grandparents who were there for a holiday or for a celebration, whatever, people would say, “Hey, keep in touch.” People don’t even say that anymore. What’s happened?
Jason Levin: Well, I think it was one of those things where we said it, but we didn’t mean it.
Christopher T. Anderson: I know. I get that.
Jason Levin: Exactly. Keep in touch. Let’s do lunch, which in American English, goodbye. Well, we can’t say goodbye, so we said keep in touch. I don’t think we say keep in touch anymore because of all this perceived digital connection. We see what’s going on in people’s lives via LinkedIn, via Facebook, via all these different social platforms, but the reality is we don’t know what’s going on in people’s lives. We just see what people are posting.
Christopher T. Anderson: We’re getting a very, very filtered view.
Jason Levin: The notion of keeping in touch in this digital age I think is even heightened because we need to get back with the people that we already know, like and trust.
Christopher T. Anderson: Why is it so hard? The digital stuff made us think that, but that’s got to mean to me that it actually released us to some of these more natural, like why do we — because even before the pandemic, like we just said, let’s do lunch was bullshit. Why don’t we keep in touch? What’s so hard about it?
Jason Levin: I think there’s a couple of pillars. One is life itself. Being the sandwich generation with aging parents, all the different life events that happen, I think that we forget or don’t prioritize it because of all these different life events.
Then, if you look at the academic research, there’s a couple of things that I found which were really interesting. The first is in talking with the mental health community and looking at the social science around psychology, I coined the term the Bermuda keep in touch triangle. And so, why don’t we keep in touch? It’s in our mind.
Just like in the Bermuda Triangle, planes and ships went to disappear, so do your intentions, because of three very normal emotions, fear, worry, and guilt. And so, they form a triangle to keep us from, “Oh, I should get back and touch with so-and-so, but I feel so guilty. It’s my fault. I’m the one that let this go away.”
And then it leads into fear. “Well, if I do reach out, they’re never going to respond, and it’s not going to work out.” And then the worry about, “Oh my God, I can’t do this.” And so, people also don’t reach out because of their own barriers that they create for themselves.
What’s really interesting is that Daniel Pink just came out with a new book, it’s called, ‘The Power of Regret’ and he did a survey of 16,000 people and what their main regrets were. He put him in four categories. The one that showed up the most were connection regrets, losing touch with people. It’s the triangle.
Christopher T. Anderson: That makes total sense. I am talking with Jason Levin. He’s the author of ‘Relationships to Infinity’ and he’s the founder and CEO of Ready, Set, Launch. We are going to take a break and listen to the sponsors who make this show possible. When we come back, I made an offhand remark that I want to follow up on talking about why that attorneys get networking wrong. I want to talk about that and I’ve got more questions about this keeping in touch because I’m just fascinated, but first, we’ll hear from our sponsors.
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Christopher T. Anderson: We’re back with Jason Levin and we’ve been talking about keeping in touch. I’m going to shift gears just a little bit here. We are going to actually get back to keeping in touch this because I am personally fascinated. I’m going to think the listeners will really enjoy more conversation on that, but I did throw away a comment that I want to touch back on, which is about networking and about I said, there were two kinds of attorneys, those who hate it and those who do it wrong. That’s probably a little bit harsh, but what do attorneys get wrong about networking, Jason?
Jason Levin: One, what they associate it with. First, when you talk to attorneys about networking, here are the words that come out. Networking equals events. Networking equals social media. Networking equals transactions. Those are the top three types of words that come out. When it comes to event, I’m an introvert. I’m a terrible networker because I’m not good at events. I don’t understand social media, so I can’t do that.
And so, there’s a huge amount of self-sabotage from law school onward. I mean, you were talking earlier about my lovely redheaded attorney wife. When I was in business school, she was in law school and guess what? Law school is a very individual experience. You read your books, you take your tests. And as she likes to call business school, it’s a group hug. We’re all working in teams all the time.
My first year of business school, I was a section leader. And so, we would throw parties. We had a very international cohort from Argentina to China. And so, I used to say, “Well, let’s do potluck dinners and everybody bring a food from your country.” And I would bring my wife and she would actually get a little bit anxious, the crowd was too large.
For me, I completely understand how attorneys can misunderstand what networking is really about. For me, networking at its core is keeping in touch individually. If you do that right, and so, if you focus on the people that you already know versus what classic networking says, “Oh, you have to go run out and reach out to all these different types of people.” If you actually isolate to the people you currently know, like and trust and use that as your where do you begin, then the joy starts, because like, “Oh, I can reach out to people. I can connect with those people because I already know them.”
Christopher T. Anderson: And then you can broaden out from there.
Jason Levin: Yes.
Christopher T. Anderson: Because I think one of the things you’ve hit on is quite honestly, I think at that stage of life when we’re getting towards the end of our college career, we’re thinking about postgraduate experiences, I get the feeling that more introverts gravitate towards law and more extroverts gravitate towards business because of the experiences that they’re about to face, but it’s a cycle, right? It’s these are the people that go there that’s why the experiences are the way they are to some extent.
Jason Levin: Righto, but what the psychology and social science shows is that we all need interaction. What happens after that interaction, where an introvert needs quiet to recharge or an extrovert can just keep going and going and going, and I talked about this in the book through the profiles of the people that I interviewed, you can be an amazing keeper and toucher one-on-one and be an introvert, because guess what? Introverts are better observers. Introverts are better listeners. Introverts are better at human connection and actually having a conversation with someone. Dare I say, introverts are actually more prone to being better at keeping in touch than the extrovert.
Christopher T. Anderson: In some of the stuff, you discussed a concept called dormant ties, and I think I understand from what you just went through what that’s going to be but I want you to kind of touch on that. What do you mean by dormant ties and why are they important?
Jason Levin: Dormant ties is part of a body of academic research called network theory. The network theory has existed since the 1960s. And so, what a group of researchers did in 2011 was they took a large group of executives, and they said, “Okay, we want you to share a business problem with a few people that you currently know and then share that same business problem with a few people that you’ve lost touch with.”
And in the sample, they used having lost touch with someone for three years or more. What came back was the ideas, insights, relationships, concepts were so much better from the people they had lost touch with. Then the researcher said, “Well, why?” And what happens is people we lose touch with go on to do new jobs, learn new things, build new networks. They provide better insights and advice.
Dare I say to all the attorneys that are listening to this, keeping in touch with people that you’ve lost touch with actually makes you smarter because the concept of dormant ties says that you can reach out to somebody that you’ve lost touch with and they’re happy to hear from you, 3, 5, 10, 15, 20 years. They’re more than happy to hear from you. They’re more than happy to help you. They are also more likely to actually influence and give you a hand in something personal professionally related.
Christopher T. Anderson: It does make some intuitive sense. They’re outside the circle of your — the people you’re in touch with regularly are in your side of your circle of regular experience. They’ve seen a lot of what you’ve seen, they know a lot of what you know, but these people that you’ve lost touch with, yeah, they’re going to be out there with a different life experience and more able to do that plus have, quite honestly, a little bit of objective distance from your problem.
Jason Levin: If you think about it, you’re an associate, somebody transitions out, goes to another firm where they would transition out and then they go in house. There could be a partner that then retires. There could be a whole host of permutations and combinations of law school classmates doing different types of things. These are your dormant ties and so, it’s one of the main reasons where the large law firms have alumni relations programs, because they recognize the value in staying connected with those dormant ties.
Christopher T. Anderson: I think that’s a fantastic concept. This is Jason Levin and he’s the author of ‘Relationships to Infinity.’ We’re talking about the concepts in his book but also the stuff he’s been teaching for really the past 11 years, but even longer as he helped colleagues in business. We’re going to hear a word from our sponsors here and when we come back, Jason, I want to talk about — we’ve been talking about what it is to lose touch of why reconnecting dormant ties is so important. We’re going to get nitty-gritty. What’s the best thing an attorney could do when they’ve lost touch? But we’ll do that when we come back.
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Christopher T. Anderson: Welcome back. We are talking with Jason Levin, author of ‘Relationships to Infinity,’ founder of Ready, Set, Launch, LLC, and we’ve been talking about losing touch, getting back in touch about dormant ties, but really about the importance of networking. Jason really is bringing, from my experience, a really unique perspective on networking that you start with your closest ties, and it’s not about going and meeting new people, new people, new people all the time. I think that’s really cool.
What we were talking about the last segment was we talked about why these dormant ties could be so important. Jason, what I’d like to do now, you’ve written about this, you’ve been thinking about this a whole lot. You mentioned earlier that one of the things that happens is I think you called the Bermuda Triangle of fear — I’m going to get it wrong, but it was like, let me see if I can get it. It was fear, guilt, worry, fear worry and guilt. Is that it?
Jason Levin: Yes.
Christopher T. Anderson: That’s keeping people from getting in touch with folks. Let’s do some practical stuff. What’s the best thing an attorney or quite honestly, any business owner can do to re-establish these ties with people they’ve lost touch with? What do they do?
Jason Levin: First, you got to break your triangle and by breaking the triangle is actually journaling. What is the most likely scenario that will happen if you reach out to this person? The more you actually write about, well, I’m going to probably email them or I might write them a letter or might call them or whatever, and most likely scenario is well, they might call me back and they might not and at the end of the day, nothing lost, nothing gained.
After you’ve broken the triangle, then it’s really about consistency through time blocking. And so, one of the biggest issues that when I’m working with associates or partners it’s like, well, it’s time. Either I’m originating or I’m billing. Where do I find the time? And so, I usually have my attorneys at least 15 minutes a week reach back out to at least one person.
This is where I think attorneys struggle. “What do I say?” And so, the social science around nostalgia is actually quite important in all of this. You can actually, I call it professional nostalgia. You can actually share a professional memory. What do you like about them? You were listening to some music and you thought of them or you just had a certain sandwich and you remember that you guys had talked about that.
There are all these different things both personal and professional, oh, I was just on this case. It reminded me about what you taught me about X. Sharing professional memories is a wonderful use of time. Dare I say you mix nostalgia with gratitude. When is the last time you thanked a mentor or a sponsor of yours when you think about what you know and why you know it, who’s taught you to get there.
And so, there are so many little things, easy things that you can do in your week to share gratitude, to show appreciation, to share a memory that allows for you to connect and reconnect with people as human beings.
Christopher T. Anderson: And it’s not that hard. If you remember these folks, it shouldn’t be that hard to bring up something. I mean, I guess since worry is part of your triangle, what if I’m worried that they’re not going to remember that or that’s not that important to them.
Jason Levin: Well, here’s the wonderful thing. And I say this all the time, that appreciation is currency. We all want to be remembered. We all want to be remembered for something. Time and time again, I’ve used these strategies with associates, with partners, with counsel and they once they get into the habit of it, it’s the habit that — it’s usually the first, the second outreach to a couple of people and they start to realize, “Wow, that was actually fun. That was actually enjoyable.” That I could connect with a former mentor or talk to a peer that’s now at a new place.
They actually not only does it help you professionally, but you actually feel inspired. It’s connecting with people as I’ve come to realize through my research is also a good mental health strategy.
Christopher T. Anderson: One of the things that kind of struck me is you early on said one of the reasons we’ve lost touch is that we are looking at social media, we are viewing all these feeds from all these people, some really connected to us, some really not and somehow that tickles are stayed in touch feelers a little bit or enough to think that we’re doing something.
And we’re reaching out that same way. We are posting this highly filtered view of our lives on there. That’s part of the problem, but can LinkedIn or Facebook or other social media also be part of the solution? Is it a tool that we can use to do what you’re talking about and not use the way that this has been blocking us for doing the right thing?
Jason Levin: Absolutely, Chris. Chris, I’m in the camp analog before digital. If you have an analog goal that comes from your heart and your mind first, you’re only as good as what you feed the technology. Imagine if you went into LinkedIn, not supposed, not to read, but you go on LinkedIn to connect. And there’s really two ways to do that.
One, the easy connect is like the two or the three minute you see someone posting and you congratulate them on a job and that kind of thing and you would like, that’s a mini keep in touch, but if you’re looking for a more intentional, I want to connect with somebody, what people ignore on the LinkedIn platform is the my network section.
If you go into my network, you can actually sort your own first-degree connections by city, by university in law school, by where they’re working. It is one big keep in touch party that people are ignoring.
Christopher T. Anderson: I didn’t even know you could do that.
Jason Levin: There’s a limit on the free version, like 30 searches I think on a monthly basis, but if you finally get through your triangle, you start to identify people that you, “What’s so-and-so doing?” You go into my network and you actually look at your own first-degree connections. That was the initial reason LinkedIn came in the first place, right Chris?
And so, you’re talking to someone who’s LinkedIn member number back when LinkedIn had member numbers, my LinkedIn member number is 141,272. I joined LinkedIn in January of 2004 and LinkedIn started in the summer of 2003. LinkedIn at its base and at its core is about connection and reconnection. They have layered on all these other things, which are important but if you’re truly interested in getting back in touch, spend time in my network.
Christopher T. Anderson: Is there any way we can find out what our number is now? I want to know. I probably joined around that same time. Am I a lower number than Jason?
Jason Levin: They used to have it in the URL. You used to be able to see it. I would every morning. It’s funny, I told my wife about LinkedIn. I told her about LinkedIn when I was in business school and she was in law school, and I was like, “Babe, there’s this thing called LinkedIn. You got to try it.” She’s like, “I got a test, leave me alone.”
Christopher T. Anderson: That is awesome. We’re coming up at the bottom of the show and I want to make sure because quite honestly, I’m motivated. I’m going to do something about getting back in touch with some folks. I think that some of the listeners, I hope a lot of the listeners are being motivated too. What would you recommend as sort of a first step or first couple of steps to implement a good keeping in touch strategy, like how to get started?
Jason Levin: First and foremost, I say to everybody start small. Pick three or five people that when you finish, this ends, I’ve been meaning to get back in touch with and write their names down. I want you then to start a file somewhere, whatever works for you. For some, it’s the notes section in your phone for some. For some, it’s an actual written pad. For others and I recommend this a lot is start an Excel file.
Start an Excel file because too often, we talk about contact management systems or CRM like these big fancy terms and we get all, “Oh my God, what’s that?” Guess what? The output of that, when you need something, it goes to an Excel file. Just open up an Excel file. First name, last name, email, phone, and then the field that I’ve been talking about, favorite memory.
Christopher T. Anderson: Nice.
Jason Levin: And so, it’s not about recording, oh, they have this many dogs and cats and what’s the name of their wife and those kinds of things, which are important connective tools. What I’m saying and the social science backs this, what do you remember about the person? What have they done for you? What do they mean to you? Sharing specific memories is the most powerful thing we can do with one another.
Christopher T. Anderson: I think that’s awesome. That is a new way of thinking about it. And it’s true. Not for nothing, my buddies in high school, my buddies in college, my buddies in law school, my buddies in the first five years I spent at the DA’s office. If they know my wife’s name or they don’t, they know my kids’ names or they don’t? I don’t know. I don’t know their wives’ names or kids probably. But if we could talk about that night we did this or that day that we learned this year, that we did the forensic analysis, whatever. That’s more important for us because I wasn’t married then. That kind of stuff. I think that’s awesome.
Unfortunately, we’re also out of time. I’m just going to say thank you. I really appreciate you being on the show and we hope this has inspired folks to do some more and to check out your book in a second, so just be thinking about this, I’m going to ask you how folks can get in touch with you.
Jason Levin: Sure.
Christopher T. Anderson: But unfortunately, that right now wraps up this edition of The Un-Billable Hour. Thank you all to our listeners for listening. Our guest today has been Jason Levin. He again, is the author of, I’m going to say it slower this time, ‘Relationships to Infinity’ and he’s the founder of Ready, Set, Launch, LLC. Jason, we just banged this out in 30 minutes. There’s so much more I’d like to talk to you about. I bet the listeners would like to follow up with you or some of them would on some stuff. If they want to follow up with you, what’s the best way for folks to get in touch with you?
Jason Levin: People can find me on my website, which is readysetlaunch.net. My email is [email protected] They could also find me on LinkedIn and Chris, I say to you, keep in touch!
Christopher T. Anderson: As you too. We’ll do lunch. All right folks. This is Christopher T. Anderson and I look forward to seeing you next month with another great guest as we learn more about topics that help us build the law firm business that works for you. Remember, you could subscribe to all the editions of this podcast at legaltalknetwork.com or on iTunes. Thanks for joining us and we will speak again soon.
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