Survey Finds Americans Lack Knowledge About Civil Legal Issues

Episode Notes

Transcript

Kathy Steinberg:

Among those who experienced a civil matter in the past three years, 44% who sought legal help did not receive it. So there’s certainly a gap there, not only in terms of awareness, but also in terms of access.

Announcer:

Equal access to justice is a core American value. In each episode of Talk Justice, an An LSC Podcast, we’ll explore ways to expand access to justice and illustrate why it is important to the legal community, business government, and the general public. Talk Justice is sponsored by the Leaders Council of the Legal Services Corporation.

Lee Rawles:

Hello and welcome to Talk Justice. I’m Lee Rawles, assistant managing editor at the A BA Journal and your host for this episode. Today we’re talking about the findings of a recent survey conducted by the Harris Poll Market Research Firm on behalf of the Legal Services Corporation. The survey of more than 2000 Americans was designed to gather insight into the public’s knowledge of their civil legal rights. It also examined the rates at which those people sought out legal help for the civil legal problems they experienced with us. Today, we are so lucky to have Ron Flagg, president of Legal Services Corporation, and Kathy Steinberg, vice President of the Harris Poll. Thank you both so much for joining us.

Kathy Steinberg:

Thank you for having me.

Ron Flagg:

Thanks so much to both of you.

Lee Rawles:

So first, let’s go over some of the top line findings of the survey, and I’m going to kick this to you. Kathy, would you tell us about what your firm was able to find?

Kathy Steinberg:

Sure. I think a couple of the most compelling and probably most concerning findings was some of the misconceptions. Just over half of Americans, 56% mistakenly believe that they are entitled to free legal representation for civil matters if they can’t afford a lawyer. And this jumps to 67% among younger adults, those aged 18 to 34. So there’s certainly this idea that they can access free legal care for civil matters if they don’t have access to a lawyer. Another key finding we found was that many Americans who did experience some kind of civil legal issue in the past three years did not seek legal help, or perhaps even more concerningly. Many sought legal help but were not able to receive it. And this includes for things like being contacted by creditors or collection agencies, people who’ve been fired from a job, natural disaster survivors, and even more than 80% for those who were older adults in particular, who we know are particularly at risk, who were victims of scams or identity theft, failed to seek legal help in that instance.

Lee Rawles:

And Ron, what was your initial reaction when you saw this data? Was this surprising to you at all?

Ron Flagg:

Lee, again, thank you to you and Kathy for having me as part of your discussion today. I had really two reactions. The first was that the data are not surprising based on my interactions with people for the last 11 years that I’ve been at LSC, most people are not aware of the differences between the criminal justice system and the civil justice system, and it’s the criminal justice system that is most familiar to people. That’s what we see in movies and television. Going back to my childhood, Perry Mason, more recently, many of us have seen episodes of Law and Order in which every week we hear that defendants are entitled to have a lawyer appointed if they can’t afford one. So it’s not surprising that people might reasonably think that if they face a life impacting legal issues such as the loss of a home or the threat or occurrence of domestic violence, that they have a right to an attorney just like they see on tv.

Lee Rawles:

The Miranda warning has been such a success in so many ways. But yeah, I guess that we’ve not been able to communicate to people that difference.

Ron Flagg:

Yeah, but my second thought, I’m an optimist, so maybe I’m being overly optimistic, but my second thought is that the public reaction reflected in the polling data while not factually correct, do generally show an entirely reasonable aspiration. People should not face the loss of a home, the loss of a child or child custody or domestic violence without legal help. And indeed, in recent years, a number of states and cities have, for example, created a right to counsel in eviction cases. So not surprising the reaction, but maybe some hope built into those reactions as well.

Lee Rawles:

To back up a little bit, Kathy, could you tell us a little bit about what the Harris Poll does and why organizations like the LSC employ these third party surveys?

Kathy Steinberg:

Sure, absolutely. You may have heard of the Harris Poll. We have been around for a while. We’re a full service independent market research company that’s now part of the Stawell group. We’ve been conducting public opinion polls since 1963. We partner with clients across industries on all types of research from message development and broad tracking to reputation management and thought leadership. And I specialize in the latter the thought leadership research, which helps clients like LSC tell their stories, raise awareness of the issues that are important to them and to various constituencies and to use the results to influence the public debate or the policy agenda. And our goal and our role when we partner with organizations like LSC is to ensure that this work is done in a credible, objective and nonpartisan way.

Lee Rawles:

And Ron, let’s talk about the timing of this survey. Why did you choose now to approach the Harris Poll to conduct this survey?

Ron Flagg:

Well, thanks for the question. LSC is celebrating our 50th anniversary this year. We were created in 1974 when President Richard Nixon signed the LSC Act, and we’re using the occasion of LSCs 50th anniversary as a forward-looking opportunity to raise public awareness about the multitude of significant civil legal needs that base most Americans, particularly those living in poverty and the critical role that legal aid can play in meeting those needs. I frequently speak about the justice gap. That’s the difference between the legal needs, particularly of low income Americans and the resources available to meet those needs. Just one data point in that regard, 92% of the serious legal problems faced by low income Americans receive no or inadequate assistance. But in addition to this justice gap that I just referred to, there’s a tremendous knowledge gap. Very few people know about the justice gap. And so we’re using our 50th anniversary as an opportunity to shine a spotlight on this issue and working with the Harris Poll as a means of measuring people’s awareness of these issues and to hopefully highlight the importance of civil legal aid.

Lee Rawles:

Well, I love that you’re both highlighting this access to justice gap and taking this forward looking approach. When you got the results, and like you said, you’re taking a forward looking approach, you’re trying to identify what are some of the things we’re going to try and focus on in our next 50 years. Were there any areas of specific concern for you that the poll identified?

Ron Flagg:

Well, there sure were even before the poll, even before our 50th anniversary for much of our last 50 years, but particularly since the pandemic when tens of millions of people faced the risk of eviction housing has been a concern for us. And the poll reinforced that concern. The poll found that nearly one in three Americans, 31% who were facing eviction or foreclosure did not seek legal help. And then another 35% of those people who were threatened with eviction or foreclosure said that they did reach out for legal help but didn’t receive any. Those are both concerning. Housing is so important. It impacts not just where you live, but it impacts your family life, educational opportunities, healthcare, employment opportunities. It correlates with involvement in the criminal justice system. So all these really critical aspects of life are adversely affected by the loss of housing, and it’s really important, critical in America that we develop more resources to provide to people who have issues with their housing or face eviction. And it’s also very important that we increase public awareness of these resources.

Lee Rawles:

Well, I certainly in my own life have heard people talking about their housing concerns. There does seem to be a little bit of a bright spot in here if you are Legal Services corporation. Eviction is an example of a civil legal issue that does sometimes in some places entitle defendants to legal representation. So could you tell us a little bit more about that?

Ron Flagg:

That’s a great point. It’s an important point, and yes, right to counsel for eviction has been recognized or created in a few places for the most part in recent years, often since the pandemic began, but a few before then. And there are roughly 17 cities and five states that have enacted legislation that requires that tenants facing eviction have access to a lawyer. Many of these apply only to people under a certain income threshold. And what we’ve seen when people have access to a lawyer as a result of the right to counsel and eviction cases, they’re much more likely to stay in their homes. Let me elaborate on that. In the absence of these right to counsel laws, if you look across the country, over 90% of tenants are unrepresented in eviction cases. And if we focus in on those 90% of tenants or more who have no representation, they suffer an adverse result again, across the country on average.

So there are exceptions, but where they’re not represented, they have a bad result 90% of the time or more bad result means they’re evicted, they lose their home, they may get an eviction on their record, which makes it harder for them to find a new home where people do have counsel, either because they found a legal aid lawyer or because they’re in one of these jurisdictions that have created a right for counsel. The outcome flips in 90% of those cases, for example, in Cleveland after their right to Counsel law, when in fact 93% of the tenants represented had favorable results, meaning they stayed in their home or stayed in their home for a much longer period than they would’ve otherwise been able to do so. And there’s a big difference between being on the street after a day or two and having a few months to find a new home without getting an eviction on your record.

The other thing I will say is that, and it’s with regard in particular to these right to counsel laws, is that economic studies show legal aid is a great return on investment. Again, if we focus on housing cases, if a family is not evicted, their communities save money on shelter, their communities face savings in terms of healthcare, because people are on average, stay much more healthy if they’re able to stay in their homes. Educational results, employment results much better if evictions are avoided. All of those lead to positive returns on investment for those jurisdictions that make the investment. And those returns can be anywhere from $3 for every dollar invested to $13 for every dollar invested. There’ve been a wide range of studies, but they all show a positive return of multiples of the investment.

Lee Rawles:

Well, those Cleveland numbers truly are astounding. 93% who received that legal help were able, like you said, to stay at least a little longer. So that’s amazing. As we zoom out though, there was a lot of data collected. And Kathy, I’d like to turn to you to talk about some of the other findings that the Harris Poll made. For example, what kind of demographic trends stood out to you that the poll was able to capture?

Kathy Steinberg:

We had a very robust sample size of over 2000 US adults. So we were able to look at the data by quite a few different demographic variables. And one of the key areas where we saw differences was by age. So younger adults, those ages 18 to 34 were much more likely to incorrectly believe that they are entitled to free legal help for civil legal problems. I think I might’ve mentioned that earlier. It was 67% who mistakenly believe they have access to this, and even when they do experience issues and seek legal help, we also found that younger adults, 18 to 34, among those who experienced a civil matter in the past three years, 44% who sought legal help did not receive it. So there’s certainly a gap there, not only in terms of awareness, but also in terms of access. And on the flip side, still, when looking at age older adults, those ages 55 plus were even less likely to seek out legal help for various issues that they’re dealing with.

So there’s certainly room for more targeted awareness for both younger adults, 18 to 34 and older adults ages 55 plus. And I would add there’s also a gender divide with women being less likely than men to reach out for help when experiencing civil matters across the board. But specifically when they were contacted by creditors or collection agencies, 79% did not reach out versus 48% of men who did when they were fired from a job, 66% of women did not reach out for help. Versus 45% of men who did, and many may not be aware of the legal aid that can be available to natural disaster survivors. 66% of women did not seek out legal help versus 41% of men who did. So definitely quite a few differences, both by gender and by age when it comes to awareness of the legal aid, civil legal aid that they have access to, but also for those who do try to take advantage of that differences in terms of what they’re able to access.

Lee Rawles:

Well, I can definitely see how these survey numbers are going to help target the most impacted members of the population for these public education campaigns. But let’s talk about another major focus of the LSC, which is getting past these barriers to accessing legal help. So if a person is trying to access this legal help, the survey is showing us that one in three Americans didn’t seek it at all. They may have thought that they could handle their problem alone or that it wasn’t serious enough to warrant calling a lawyer. And there was 23% surveyed who believed a legal professional just couldn’t help them with their problem. And 32% of Americans didn’t seek legal assistance due to worries about the cost. But let’s look at the people who did try to access legal help. So Ron, what were some of the barriers to accessing that legal help for the people who did try?

Ron Flagg:

Well, I think for the people who try the barriers are at least a couple fold. And actually, let me, not to quibble with your question, but let me take a step back because I really think one aspect of the knowledge gap about the justice gap is people don’t realize the extent to which people don’t understand that they have a need for legal assistance or that they’re even dealing with a legal issue. So first, people don’t recognize they have a legal problem. Let me give you an example. Debt collection in particular, medical debt, a lot of people think I got medical services, I wasn’t able to pay the bill. End of story. This is not a legal issue. This is a financial issue. They don’t realize, for example, that public hospitals often are required to have programs that provide financial support to people of limited economic means, and the enforcement of the rights created by such programs are legal issues in the housing arena.

Similarly, people owe back rent. They recognize I owe back rent, I don’t have the money. End of story. This is a financial issue. It’s not a legal issue. They may not be aware that their obligation to pay rent might be affected by whether the conditions of their housing meet code requirements and legal issue. Now, to answer your question directly, Lee, so let’s talk about the people who are aware they have a legal issue. They may not be aware of the existence of civil legal aid. They know there are lawyers out there, but their belief is that lawyers charged for their services and they don’t have the money to pay their medical bills, they don’t have the money to pay their rent, and they sure as heck can’t pay a lawyer to help them deal with that. And third, too often in America, even where people know they are confronted by a legal issue, know about legal aid, they get turned away because legal aid programs simply lack the resources to serve everyone who needs help.

Across our country. Legal aid programs generally turn away half the eligible applicants for service who make it to legal AID’S door. I need to repeat that because I find it even after knowing about this for 10 years, I still find it sad and shocking programs. LSC funds, the legal aid programs and the programs, other legal aid programs that we don’t fund on average turn away one out of two of the people who make it to their door and are eligible for services simply because they don’t have the resources to serve them. And I think all three of these problems recognizing you have a legal problem knowing about civil legal aid and legal aid, having the resources to serve you underscore the need for greater resources to be devoted to civil legal aid. Greater resources will enable greater public education and outreach regarding legal issues and legal rights and increase the availability of legal assistance when legal problems arise.

And of course, greater resources are desperately needed to reduce the 50% turn away rate that we’ve been seeing now for many years. So in LSCs 50th year, a focus of what we’re doing is to focus public attention on this issue of the justice gap, on the need for greater resources and for the recognition that of two things. One, that a fair legal system is a foundation stone of our democracy. And second, if that is not important enough for you, it’s a good investment investing and empowering people with that investment so they can assert their rights in court and in other forms produces a positive return and saves the public money. That would be my takeaway from all the data that both you shared and that Kathy shared as well.

Lee Rawles:

Ron, I do keep thinking about one of the statistics that Kathy shared with us, that young adults aged 18 to 34, 60 7% of them believe that they’re entitled to free legal representation in civil matters that they can’t afford a lawyer. Obviously that’s not currently true, but when you see that belief in a younger generation, do you think that perhaps the upcoming generations could make this a political reality if there is a will coming from the younger generations to erase this justice gap and to make things like that possible? Do you find hope in some of these survey results?

Ron Flagg:

I do. I think I’ll return to what I said at the outset. I was not surprised at the overall data showing that people thought they might have a right or they did have a right to a lawyer in civil cases. But I take some hope from it that people’s belief that they did have a right to a lawyer represented their belief that they should have a right to a lawyer if their home is in jeopardy, if their safety and security in a domestic relationship is in jeopardy, if their veterans benefits are in jeopardy, if their livelihoods are in jeopardy, these are life impacting events and they’re ones that we’ve created a justice system premised on the assumption that people will have lawyers when they’re dealing with the system. We either need to change the system or we need to fulfill our promise or premise that people will have the assistance they need to navigate the system properly. And we really need to educate people about this problem. And I’m hopeful that the younger generation will appreciate this more than those people my age have in the past and will really demand that the system treat everybody more fairly.

Kathy Steinberg:

I think we see that bear out in the data where younger people, whether they received it or not, in many instances, they were more likely to seek out legal help than older adults. So I think that I would agree with Ron. I think that suggests that they might believe they have the right to this legal assistance. Now in many instances, we are also seeing some of the other really shocking and sad saddening stat that Ron cited with half who sought legal help being unable to receive it. But there is kind of a general trend across various civil issues that we asked about where younger people were more likely to seek out legal help, whereas older adults were more likely to say, I did not seek it out.

Lee Rawles:

Well, thank you to both of you, Ron and Kathy for joining us today to talk about this important survey and the issue it reveals. And thanks to you, the listeners for tuning in to this episode of Talk Justice. Please subscribe so you never miss an episode.

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