Why Your Legal Arguments Fail (And How to Fix Them) with Jefferson Fisher

Episode Notes

Transcript

Rocky Dhir:

Hi, and welcome to the State Bar of Texas podcast. For those of you who tune in regularly, we’ve been through a lot together, so many stories, so many topics, and even a pandemic and its aftermath. And well to those of you just tuning in, we’re glad to have you. And you might be new, but you’re still family. You’re part of this and we’re glad to have you. But I’m going to let you in on a little secret about myself. Very few people know this about me, but I used to stammer, not like the King’s speech level, but it was pretty bad. I used to ramble when I spoke. I also did lots of, or between bouts of stammering, I overcame stammering because a debate coach taught me to slow down and let my mouth catch up with my brain, although my brain was never all that fast.

So I guess my mouth really didn’t have a lot of work to do, but it helped nonetheless. It took me years to finally learn how to speak somewhat, and I repeat somewhat smoothly. You see what I did there with the repeat? Yeah, that’s what I’m talking about. So back then, I wish I’d known Jefferson Fisher. He could have helped me in a matter of months. Jefferson is a lawyer based in Silsbee, Texas. His firm, the Fisher Firm, practices personal injury immigration business law. You get the idea they do everything, but here’s why Jefferson is here. He has a YouTube, TikTok and Instagram channel that gives people tips, not just lawyers, regular people, tips on how to more effectively communicate, specifically how to be a more effective verbal communicator. He’s amassed over 500,000 followers across social media with the videos that he records on his phone while sitting in his GMC pickup truck. So let’s get to it. Jefferson Fisher, welcome to the podcast.

Jefferson Fisher:

Hey, Rocky, thanks so much for having me.

Rocky Dhir:

Absolutely. So you’re not in your pickup truck now, it looks like we are important enough to where you actually sat at a table. This is fantastic.

Jefferson Fisher:

Yeah, yeah, I do for podcasts and other things. I do have a laptop. I do have a table. Try to knock it out there.

Rocky Dhir:

Let’s maybe talk about the genesis of your YouTube recordings. What gave you the idea for this video series? How did you get started with it?

Jefferson Fisher:

I started at about close to two years ago, and I had just left a big defense firm where I was a partner and decided to go off on my own, start my own personal injury practice. And during that transition I thought, well, I need to start on social media. So I began making a few videos telling people about what I do, and it just didn’t feel like me, Rocky. It didn’t feel natural. It felt like I was just selling myself. And I just thought, well, what can I do to give them value?

Rocky Dhir:

And when you say you wanted to get on social media, is that really to promote your law firm? Was that kind of the idea?

Jefferson Fisher:

Yeah, the idea was to almost solely, well, I want to figure out what the platforms like. I wasn’t active on them and it was to promote the law firm. That was the original genesis of it. And I realized that that didn’t feel good. So I started to think, well, what can I do to bring value to everyday people? And the idea was communication. I love communication. It, it’s something I enjoy talking about. And I just thought, well, what if I give some tips for people and how to improve their communication?

Rocky Dhir:

But where did that come from? What made you think communication versus, I mean, there’s other, there’s a whole host of things you could have talked about. You could have thrown hotdog at people and let ’em catch ’em in their mouths or whatever they do on TikTok now, but you picked something like communication. What brought that about?

Jefferson Fisher:

It was just something that felt very much like me. It’s a gift that I’ve always had, just something I enjoy talking about. It was something I thought, how can I be in conversations at the dinner table? How can I improve people’s life in the workplace? How can I truly be a help to them? Not so much this entertainment, this trendy, this cutesy. How can I provide real positive value and be a light in social media? And that’s where it began.

Rocky Dhir:

Well, let’s do this. Why don’t you walk us through your first communication video. What was the topic and how did you come up with it and did you know it was going to be something substantive? I mean, just walk us through that. Very first one.

Jefferson Fisher:

Yeah, was, if I remember it was how to argue like a lawyer, part one. And it was this real quick idea of I knew I was going to put it down into three points because that’s how I do with my closing arguments. It’s way easier for a jury trial if you give them three concise points that they can remember that power of three. And at the time, I didn’t have an office, so I had just left my firm, so I was just surfing coffee shops. So I thought, well, I’m going to have to make it in my truck. I’m just going to have to make it in my truck.

Rocky Dhir:

It sounds like a country western song.

Jefferson Fisher:

It does, yeah. Yeah, it is a country western song. Make it in the truck. Yep.

Rocky Dhir:

That could be a little off color too, depending on where your mind goes. We’re going to make videos in our truck about the law.

Jefferson Fisher:

You got it. And I made it about how you can’t get defensive as soon as you get defensive in an argument you’ve lost because you’re telling the other person that they’re onto something that they’ve won, that you don’t have anything else substantive to contribute. I talked about how not to get personal. I talked about you can’t be interrupting. So it was very simple, concise advice, and every video was less than a minute, what it had to be at that time. And that short little snippet was something that was packaged that I made spur of the moment thinking nobody was going to see it because I hadn’t had anybody watching any, I just hadn’t done it before. So it started to slowly take off and I made a few more. And by how to argue like a lawyer, part four, which I was doing these once every week, once every two weeks. I didn’t know anything about consistency at the time. The fourth one just went viral and went nuts.

Rocky Dhir:

Talk like a lawyer, part four.

Jefferson Fisher:

Yeah, the first one went viral. That really started gaining a whole lot of traction and getting people asking for more and more topics. And then I slowly started getting more questions of, well, how do you respond to this person? How do you handle this? There just wasn’t that content out in that social media world at the time. And so I just started answering questions best I could.

Rocky Dhir:

For lawyers that want to maybe get on social media and come up with a topic, whether it’s a legal topic or a non-legal topic, what are some of the tips you’ve learned? How do you make an effective social media post? Whether it’s YouTube or Instagram or Facebook, whatever, LinkedIn. I mean, any of these platforms

Jefferson Fisher:

Don’t talk about the law. If you want to talk about cases, that’s great, but people like cases because they’re stories. But if you’re constantly trying to sell your service and sell your law firm, you’re not going to get very many followers. Maybe it makes you feel good, but you’re just not going to get that much of a following. And the question for those people to ask themselves is if they didn’t work where they worked, if they didn’t work at the law firm that they’re at, would they follow them on social media? Probably not, because we think of why you follow the people that you follow. It’s not because they give you legal advice, it’s because they make you laugh. They tell stories that captivate you, they give you value. So you have to find a way to be authentic to yourself. I mean, with my followers, I get calls from all over for personal injury cases and from other attorneys too, trying to refer cases. And I don’t talk about any personal injury on my platform. I could, but that’s selling myself. You have to find a way to just show your authenticity. People follow people. They don’t, don’t follow businesses. They follow the why you’re doing it, not what you’re doing.

Rocky Dhir:

And you said videos need to be less than a minute each, or does that change over time?

Jefferson Fisher:

That helps.

Rocky Dhir:

I’ve heard it’s like 30 seconds to 45 seconds. No more than that. I mean that’s,

Jefferson Fisher:

Nah, I wouldn’t put it into some type of formula, but I would definitely say the shorter, the better. If you’re doing a TikTok, if you’re doing an Instagram reel, the shorter the better because attention spans just aren’t there. And very quickly you need to get to the point. If you start your video with, Hey, so I get this question all the time and it’s a very important question and well, I get this. And you start to just, well, you’ve wasted five seconds, you’ve wasted seven seconds, they’ll scroll along. So you need to be very clear right out of the gate of what your value is. So that’s how I started my videos of what to say when somebody interrupts you, boom right there. I’m going to tell you, if you watch a video, I’m going to tell you what to say. It’s a flu. Watch the video.

You’re not hiding the ball from them. And that feels open and transparent. That’s just the way that kind of value is going to be. Now, if you’re telling a story, so to speak, people tend stay on if they’re wanting to figure out the end, they want some kind of closure. But generally, if you make a video like I did or out of the gate when I first was experimenting on what to do in a car accident, it’s not going to do anything because it’s just not giving value. You have to think what’s going to give them a reason to share this Red’s really where the value comes, it’s not from the likes, it’s not from the views, it’s from the shares. That’s how you’re providing something of value.

Rocky Dhir:

Having done this now for a while, I mean I guess a couple of years now, what has this process taught you about what the public wants or expects from lawyers beyond just representing them in court, but why do they look to us for advice and why are they taking communication advice from us and what are they really looking for? When you say I’m a lawyer,

Jefferson Fisher:

They kind of want somebody who’s a model of behavior and how they handle diplomacy, how they handle argument, how they handle communication, how they handle how rules should be a lot of, I believe part of why my platform grew was because there’s this contrast that’s very curious to people about, I’m a personal injury attorney who they know as the hammer, the flame thrower. I’m a fighter, I put up, I’m going to recover millions for you kind of ambulance chasing reputation.

But what I’m portraying is a, let me tell you about how you don’t want to win an argument. You want to come together. So I am speaking with kindness, I’m talking about grace being a positive force. So it’s very much that sense of I didn’t know an attorney could be like that. I see a lot of comments about that, that it gives them a sense of they feel like they can trust the person. They don’t have to worry about how they’re supposed to handle certain situations without any kind of guidance. It helps them know that the reason why attorneys exist is the reason we went to law school and that is that to truly help people not put money in our pockets,

Rocky Dhir:

It sounds like maybe it’s relatability.

Jefferson Fisher:

Yeah, they want authenticity, relatability. They’re used to seeing attorneys in suits behind a wall of law books, talking about things they don’t understand and where for, whereas

Rocky Dhir:

I still don’t understand all that, but yes,

Jefferson Fisher:

Nobody does. Nobody does. But we’re all pretending somehow people still bill for it. But yeah, it’s that just full transparency of hey, they’re humans too.

Rocky Dhir:

When we come back, we’re going to talk a little bit about the actual communication tips. We’re going to get into some of these and especially for how they might impact lawyers. So guys, sit back, relax, we’re going to hear from one of our sponsors and when we come back, Jefferson’s going to talk to us about some actual communication advice. So stay tuned, we’ll be right back. And we are back with Jefferson Fisher talking about communication tips. Now we’ve learned a little bit about social media and how we got started, but let’s talk about the substance because a lot of us on this platform, we’re lawyers. We at least pretend to substance. I have to pretend like I do. So let’s talk a bit about some of your tips. Jefferson, what would you say is the biggest communication error that people in general make and then maybe that lawyers make?

Jefferson Fisher:

Well, one of the biggest errors people make is they assume that what was said was exactly what was heard. What

Rocky Dhir:

Do you mean by that?

Jefferson Fisher:

Yeah, this idea that if I say something to you, you automatically absorb the same exact thing. You hear the same exact intent, you hear the same exact tone, and so many times it leads to this problem of I didn’t say that. And they say, yes, you did. No, I didn’t say that. So there’s a difference between what was said and what was heard, and that to me is just the baseline of miscommunication. And too many times, especially as attorneys, people feel like our job is to win arguments and all we do is win arguments, but that’s just not the truth. When you win an argument, you damage relationship. I am a big proponent of arguments are not something to win. They are something to unravel because if you win an argument, knock down, drag out, fight, and you congrats, you won it, all you’ve really won is their contempt, you’ve won that awkward silence. The next time you pass each other in the hall instead of becoming curious about it and having something to learn rather than something to prove. That tends to be one of the biggest errors that builds miscommunication, that builds upon mistrust and all the other bad things that can happen in relationships.

Rocky Dhir:

Is that just lawyers or do you think that’s people in general?

Jefferson Fisher:

People in general, that’s everybody. But I think they assume they, people everywhere believe that. They’ve been told that arguments are something to win, that if you’re in an argument you should win it. Even attorneys don’t win arguments. We advocate facts that have to pass elements of admissibility and for judges to rule on and juries to decide on. So all we do is give a voice to the facts, but we don’t win the argument. You don’t get to choose the facts, you don’t get to choose the law. You can only advocate what you believe somebody else should decide.

Rocky Dhir:

At some level, when we go to law school as lawyers, we’re taught that you’ve got to go and try to figure out the best arguments you can make to try to win at the hearing or win at the trial. How do you marry what you’re talking about, about really not trying to win an argument, really unravel facts and unravel stories. How do you kind of jive that with this idea that we have to prevail at a trial or at a hearing? I mean there’s this idea of winning and losing, especially in litigation. So how do you reconcile the two?

Jefferson Fisher:

Advocacy separates it from me. That is my job. And what we were taught is that you have to create the most persuasive argument under the color of the law, the law that applies under the facts that you have to best advocate for your client, for the position, for your client. We know that winning and losing is very rarely a thing. It is cases vast majority settle. The vast majority settle. That’s not a win, that’s not a lose, that’s a resolution. So often sometimes I have a client that just wants to pursue a case just for the principle of it, and they just want to win to win. When that’s often no, they just don’t understand they’re going to lose so much more. They’re going to lose their peace of mind. They’re going to lose that extra sleep. And it’s my job to understand that no, the value of your life, the enjoyment of it, that value is much more than this for the principle of it over a much smaller amount.

So I try to steer that conversation to a, let’s look at it from a healthy perspective, a mental perspective of your life in general. And I know people like to use, it’s very common. I mean we’re just competitive people, especially attorneys, especially litigators. It’s easy to use the, did you win a hearing? Did you lose a hearing? I’ve been in hearings while I walked in and I know I’m going to lose because the law says I should lose. It’s nothing I can control. The law says this doesn’t fly. The case law says the precedent is there that what I want to happen isn’t going to happen. That doesn’t mean that my argument loses.

Rocky Dhir:

There’s this interesting thing that happens oftentimes in litigation. I dunno if you’ve faced this, I know I did, especially early on in my career where I would meet with an opposing lawyer. We’re both advocating for our clients and there’s the handshake and there’s the cordial, hi, how are you? Nice to meet you. But at some level they’re trying to size you up and see can you fight, can you not fight? How smart are you? And there’s a certain level of that gamesmanship that they’re trying to engage in. And at least in my experience, some of those lawyers, not all of them, but there are some where if you don’t engage in that, they take that as a sign of weakness and it makes it that much harder to come to a resolution because they’re just not taking you seriously enough until you give ’em a bloody nose in court and they either lose an argument or they lose a hearing and they’re upset, but at the end of the day, they respect and now it’s easier to come to a resolution. I dunno if you’ve ever faced that and how do your techniques kind of reconcile with that aspect of being an advocate?

Jefferson Fisher:

That’s very natural. I’ve certainly experienced that, especially as a young litigator going up a much more seasoned litigator. I don’t engage in the gamesmanship because that’s just not my personality. I do believe there’s absolutely an experience curve where you’re going to have to have a few trials under your belt for people to respect your skills as a litigator period. That’s part of it until, or they say you walk softly and carry a big stick. I know that you have a certain amount of trials under your belt and the way you carry yourself enough people are going to know and enough people are going to talk about it, but it’s more staying true to who you are and your personality and letting the results speak for themselves. I mean, it’s often the case that when you go into this and you try to back and forth, it seems to be a generational thing.

Rocky, I don’t know if you’ve picked up on it of in my view, there’s an older generation that is so used to the, I’m going to beat you, I’m going to pulverize you. Let’s go and have it out. And you see how big of a man you are in the courthouse kind of thing. That just ego, that just, oh golly, that’s just so overrated. And to me there’s a younger shift that we speak pretty openly about the problems. In our case, I have no problem in the people that I work with that seem to me in my same generation have no problem getting through issues pretty quickly where there’s not that saber rattling just to do it. I think there’s some of an older generation that like the fight because it makes them feel alive. It makes them feel like they’re still in the game. That’s not what I’m about. I don’t know that it was

Rocky Dhir:

With more seasoned litigators. I don’t know that it was so much that the lawyers themselves wanted to get into the fight, but sometimes their clients would question their competency if they didn’t look like they were really fiercely advocating and sometimes that meant that they had to get a bit aggressive with their rhetoric. And so maybe what you’re touching on is that what clients are expecting of us may be changing and evolving. Do you think that’s a possibility or do you think this really falls on the lawyers themselves?

Jefferson Fisher:

No, I don’t think what the clients are expecting is changing. I absolutely believe that the client should expect fierce advocacy. I agree with that 100%. My point is that the bitter rhetoric, the stuff of aggressive, aggressive mentality right out of the gate, sometimes you haven’t earned that. They put on a really good show at mediation when it comes to trial. They haven’t earned that in front of the jury. So sometimes if you come out swinging saying all these terrible things about somebody, you haven’t earned that right yet until they prove themselves to be what you say they are in front of a jury. I often find that some attorneys, especially in the personal injury space, they just market so much aggression. They market so much anger, just the feeding, we’re going to smash, we’re going to hurt, we’re going to punch. I believe that there is a subtle shift in that kind of rhetoric when it comes to how clients perceive attorneys and what they want out of their case and I’m, I’m certainly living proof of that.

Rocky Dhir:

We’re going to take another quick break. When we come back, we’re going to talk a little bit about actually keeping your cool during an argument and how you do it and then what this means for effective advocacy outside of the Courtroom. So everybody stay tuned. We’re going to hear from a sponsor and we’re going to be right back with Jefferson Fisher. See you soon. Alright, we’re back. And we were having a, what I think was a rather riveting discussion about what clients expect and lawyer advocacy and all this, but during the break I kind of had this question that popped into my head and that had to do with arguments. One of the things that you say in your videos is that you should try to keep your cool. Don’t raise your voice. There’s methods that you give people for how to appropriately and effectively deal with argumentation, and part of that is just stay calm. Don’t let your emotions get the better of you, which sounds great on paper. The question is, if you’re dealing with something that is deeply hurtful, deeply personal, and this may not have to do with being a lawyer, this may just deal with somebody’s personal life. How do you control your emotions in a situation like that?

Jefferson Fisher:

The biggest element to controlling your emotion is the breath. It is the ability to, what I say is let your breath be the first word that you say and that is making sure that your analytical brain stays at the forefront. It’s keeping that fight or flight in check because often you raise your voice, you get so tense in your shoulders, it’s because you hold your breath and you just squeeze your body. You squeeze your muscles and so your breath really has nowhere else to go but to explode through the volume of what you’re about to say. Allowing that power of the pause just to take five seconds to breathe, make sure you feel in control of yourself and really get curious about why they said what they said, where that’s coming from. Wonder why they said it that way. That’s going to be much better to take control over your own emotion. That’s why it’s one of my first rules is to say it with control that begins with your breath.

Rocky Dhir:

I can see folks kind of having trouble with that. Let’s say you’re talking about something really just, let’s use a family law example. You’re dealing with infidelity in a marriage and the side who got cheated on is just feeling really terribly about what happened and at a mediation or in the Courtroom or what have you, the emotions get the better of them. They might take the breath, but there’s just tension that is building up inside of them. There are mental health professionals who would say that you got to let that out or else it stays inside you. The term I keep using is reconciling how do you reconcile keeping your cool during an argument, but then also letting out things that you have to let out from a mental health perspective. I mean, is that something that you’ve had to contend with?

Jefferson Fisher:

I wouldn’t say that when you’re in that family law matter, if you need to say something, then yes, that’s part of your needs. There’s also a place for therapy and being able to explain things and say things without having to worry about the harsh blowback from somebody else. Often it’s the sifting of emotions and feelings to find out and decide how you want to feel about something in terms of is it something to reconcile? I have no problem with somebody needing to say what they want to say. They just need to make sure that they understand the repercussions of it. They understand that. Are they saying it just to hear themselves or they’re wanting to say it for a reason? Because often people say things to make themselves feel better rather than make the situation resolve so often it may feel better to them, but it’s made the situation worse. If that’s the case, I would say that was a bad bet.

Rocky Dhir:

How do you deal with somebody who does say things just to get under your skin or they actually want to inflict pain on you or your client? How do you counsel your client on how to deal with that and not react to it?

Jefferson Fisher:

I encourage questions of intent. Meaning did you mean for that to upset me? Did you mean for that to herd? Or even something more open-ended as what kind of response are you looking for? How did you want me to respond to that? Often if you can even repeat what they said slowly back to them, it’s going to make them question you put the ball back in their court for them to either affirm what they said or tweak what they said and realize the words of why they’re wanting to go that route. So even if I were to ask, what was your intent by saying that they have to admit that the intent was to hurt, even if I ask them, did you mean for that to offend me? Do you mean for that to sound rude? They often, that is not what they want to admit to. They’ll typically retract it or amend it in some way.

Rocky Dhir:

I’m going to play perhaps devil’s advocate for just a moment, but these tips that you just talked about, did you mean to say this or repeating it back to them? I can see in certain contexts where the other party rather than just retracting, they start to get annoyed or they start to get upset because you’re turning their inflammatory statements back on them and if they intended to make you cry or make you yell, now they’re not getting the response they wanted. They start to aggravated. If someone was to do that all the time, and if that happens in an argument, then can that in some way almost alienate the other side and have the reverse where it just backfires you trying to make the situation better, actually annoys them to the point where it makes it worse. Has that ever happened in these circumstances? When you use these techniques you’re talking about

Jefferson Fisher:

No. A manipulator who’s frustrated and annoyed they can’t manipulate you, I’d say is a win every time. What I find is that people get mad when they can’t make you an enemy, and it is a very powerful move to say, look, I’m only controlling me. It’s totally up to you to decide how you’re going to feel about it, but all of the techniques that I teach and what’s in my book, it’s all about how you’re going to respond to it. If somebody who’s trying to hurt you happens to be annoyed that they didn’t hurt you, that’s a win for you. I’m not going to be upset that they’re annoyed that they didn’t get that emotional reaction from me. So often people get upset when they can’t make an enemy. You talked about

Rocky Dhir:

Your book, you’ve got a book coming out. It’s called The Next Conversation. What exactly is it about and why should I and others go by it?

Jefferson Fisher:

It’s a book that like the title suggests, you can change everything about your life and what you want simply by what you say next. It doesn’t matter what you’ve said in the past, you can change so many things, but just with what you say next. And it breaks down really three rules of framework that I give to teach people how to better communicate and better build relationships. And that is to, number one, say it with control. Number two, say it with confidence, and number three, say it to connect. And with those three rules, you’re going to be much more secured and much better foundation for getting what you want out of anything by simply just what you say out of your mouth.

Rocky Dhir:

These communication techniques that you espouse in your videos and that you’re now going to be putting into a book, is this stuff that you’ve written down, did you come up with it on the spot whenever you’re about to do a video? I mean, how did this germinate these concepts?

Jefferson Fisher:

I just come up with them right before I do them in the car. They’re not scripted, they’re never written out. I typically finish work around four, so I can get out the door and try and make a video, and by the time I’m walking out to the time I get in the car, I’m thinking, what can I do to share some advice to just one person? So I try to just think of one person. I think of maybe something I was dealing with in my day, maybe how I handed a potential phone call with somebody or an issue. And then I just make up those three points on the spot of what is authentic to me in that moment. And then I post it before I walk in the door and I’m home and I’m dad and I’m a husband.

Rocky Dhir:

You do talk in one of your videos about the ums and the uhs, the filler words that sometimes people use. You also say that the ums and uhs, you’re not guarding against those when you’re a dad and a husband and a friend. That’s just really more for professional communication. But here’s something that I was thinking about during that video. Do you think ums and uhs, those fillers can ever actually be used effectively? I’m going to take this outside of the law for a second. Take standup comedians and some people know I do standup comedy as well on the side. And one of the things that I see a lot of standup comedians do very effectively is they’ve got a set, they’ve been doing this set a thousand times, they know exactly what words are coming next, but they’re going to do, so what do you guys want to talk about? Man? What a crazy day. But they’re trying to make it look like they’re coming up with something spontaneous and that they’re just talking off the cuff, even though they’re not. They have their whole set planned out. The ums and the uhs are filler words that are being used to create this idea of spontaneity. So with that, do you think that a mistake in communication can ever be used as a way to better connect or a better way to advocate if you’re a lawyer?

Jefferson Fisher:

Well, for comedians I find it very different. I mean, that’s part of the intention is to create that informality. It’s to create that comfort of normal everyday conversation. If I’m talking to a friend, of course I’m going to have ums and uhs in the filler words. What makes a difference is when you need to say something assertively, how I’m talking in my opening argument to a jury is not going to be the same as if I was giving my five minute set at improv. So if I need to be much more assertive on what I’m going to say, let’s say I’m in front of a jury for an opening argument and I start talking about a topic and I go and it’s like I just, to them, I lost my train of thought. I’m trying to think of what I’m going to say. Now all of a sudden I look a little bit weaker, I sound a little bit more unsure. Those are little bitty calculations that you have 12 people that are microing analyzing this. Where is he going? Is he as sure about himself? Is he confident in the case? That’s not anywhere near what you would want. The intent of laughs and casual and its entertainment value from a comedian. So there’s nothing wrong with that.

Rocky Dhir:

Final question. In your professional communication, do you find yourself ever making mistakes? And if so, what’s your most frequent communication mistake that you make? Even though you’re trying to correct yourself on these? What do you catch yourself doing? Sometimes

Jefferson Fisher:

The hardest one is what is most natural, and that is getting defensive and it’s just common. It’s biological to react and want to challenge and get defensive over something. I’m very quick to get over it, but it’s that initial knee jerk. You want to say something? Often catch myself, but sometimes I don’t.

Rocky Dhir:

Well, that is all the time we have for today. We could keep going. This is fascinating. But Jefferson Fisher, thank you for being on the podcast today. You gave us a lot to think about.

Jefferson Fisher:

Thanks, Rocky. I really appreciate the time.

Rocky Dhir:

Absolutely. And of course, I want to thank you for tuning in. I want to encourage you to stay safe and be well and be on the lookout for the next conversation by Jefferson Fisher. You can follow him on YouTube at Jefferson Fisher. He’s also on TikTok and on Instagram, and I’m sure if there’s some other social media platform, he’ll find his way there too. If you like what you heard today, please rate and review us, an Apple podcast, Google podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, remember, life’s a journey, folks. This is Rocky Deer signing offer for now.