Breaking the Stress Cycle: Tips for Becoming a Happier, Healthier Lawyer

Episode Notes

Transcript

Rocky Dhir:

Hi, and welcome to the State Bar of Texas Podcast. Lawyering is not known as a particularly athletic profession. Yes, we have athletic lawyers and we have lawyer athletes. Yet anyone who’s ever practiced law knows that lawyers actually are gymnasts, albeit mental gymnasts. We’re expected to give our very best to the courts, to our clients, to our coworkers, to our loved ones, and to the community at large. Luring is all about being well, it’s a well of knowledge, a well of insight, a well of ethics, and sometimes the well runs low or even dry. Being well can be overwhelming. And thankfully, as a community, we as lawyers have started to recognize the need to keep not only our minds, but also our emotions as sharp as possible. This is where Texas lawyers have a wonderful resource at their disposal. The Texas Lawyers Assistance Program, lovingly known as TLAP.

Now, we’ve talked about TLAP many times before on this podcast, but this topic is crucial and it bears revisiting as often as necessary and as possible. So I’m thrilled to have with me today. Michelle Fontenot, the director of TLAP. Michelle Straddles two worlds psychology and the law. She was a practicing counselor in Seattle after graduating from undergrad and grad school in counseling psychology at UT Austin. Michelle then received her law degree from Seattle University School of Law in 2009. She practiced law for a number of years before finally returning to Austin to serve as the state bar’s grievance referral program manager, and then she moved to her current role as director of TLAP. So please listen up. What she hear today could save your practice or your life or the life of someone. So Michelle, welcome.

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

Thank you. Great to be here.

Rocky Dhir:

Absolutely. Great to have you. So tell us, how long have you been director of TLAP?

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

I’m coming up on a year. So I started with TLAP as a clinical professional in 2021 during the pandemic. Erica Grigg, my predecessor, designed the position about May or June of last year. So I’ve been the director for the last year.

Rocky Dhir:

So here’s what’s always been interesting to me is it sounds like we as lawyers, we might have more mental health issues than other professions. I think at one point we were number two behind dentists, if I’m not mistaken. Is that still true or are the stats different now?

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

The stats are consistent. So the penultimate study was done in 2015 by the ABA and Betty Hazelden about lawyer mental health and substance use issues, and the amount of lawyers experiencing depression, anxiety, and exhibiting dangerous substance use was significant. I feel like that study was kind of old. So we’ve looked at some surveys more recently, the one from 2022, and the numbers bear out in 2022, the University of Chicago reported like 4,500 lawyers, 77% felt burnt out, 26% reported high rates of anxiety, 21% reported depression, 42% unhealthy or hazardous substance use. So the numbers are consistent over time. Lawyers experience mental health challenges at higher rates than almost any other profession.

Rocky Dhir:

Do we know why that is? What is it about being a lawyer? I mean, I’ve got my own armchair theories, but I want to hear from an expert. What’s causing us to feel like this? Well,

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

I think there’s lots of reasons, right? It’s an adversarial system at its core. So your colleagues at times become combatants in the Courtroom, and I think client demands are another thing. People don’t come to lawyers typically when they’re at their happiest, usually they’re asking you to handle kind of the worst things in their lives and lawyers, as opposed to the training I got when I was in counselor school, I like to call it counselor. School lawyers are not typically trained how to take care of themselves in handling other people’s biggest problems. I find when a client has an issue, lawyers have lives, right?

Rocky Dhir:

This is news to me, Michelle, my goodness. Okay,

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

You may have sick kids, sick parents, people go through divorces, and during that time, how many of your clients really care about what’s going on with you? They don’t. They want to know that you’re paying attention to what’s going on with them.

Rocky Dhir:

You were talking about the adversarial system and how at the end of the day it’s really combatants and opponents, but not all practices are that way. If you’re in a transactional practice, for example, really, you might be working more collaboratively with the other side or with your opponent. So do you think these issues with mental health and these struggles, are they more endemic to litigators or do you see that across different types of practice areas?

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

I think, and this is armchair psychology on my part too, that litigation is definitely very difficult. I think transactional law is a place where people can collaborate, but then a lot of times you’re dealing with billable hour requirements that basically mean you don’t have a life. I always talk with law students about if you’re going to firm and you think it’s cool that they have showers and will do your dry cleaning, be careful because you’re not going home.

Rocky Dhir:

Yeah, right. That’s true. It’s true. So let’s talk maybe about what’s the role of T LAP and all this, and what can lawyers expect from a service like tla? I mean, I think many of us have heard about it and some of us have used it or have some familiarity with it. It sounds like there’s still a number of lawyers who really don’t know much about TLAP and what it’s there for. So can you tell us what the mission is and when’s the time when a lawyer should reach out to TLAP?

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

Strangely enough, TLAP is celebrating its 35th anniversary this year. So TLAP was formed in 1989, and so it has been around for a long time, and the function of TLAP is to provide mental health and substance use resources for the legal community. We can talk more specifically about that, but one of the most important factors with the Texas Lawyers Assistance Program is that communication with us is statutorily confidential. So that’s important for people to know that when they call TLAP, their communication is confidential. It means we don’t talk with the Chief Disciplinary Council’s Office, we don’t talk with the Board of Law examiners. We don’t talk with anyone because if a lawyer doesn’t believe that it’s confidential, then they don’t feel safe to call and ask for help.

Rocky Dhir:

Is that the main reason lawyers don’t call? Is it because of the confidentiality or is there something else that’s kind of holding them back?

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

I think there’s a lot of reasons why people might not call. One is just not knowing about it, so I appreciate the opportunity to talk. One is a culture of not asking for help or not believing that help is available. I think lawyers have this, I call it terminal uniqueness disorder, where we think we’re the only ones that feel this way. It’s important to know that many lawyers, like the statistics I talked about, many lawyers experience these issues. The more we talk about it, the less stigma there is to call and ask for help. So I think one of the belief systems I have is that if you’re a lawyer and you expect people to come to you for your expertise, why wouldn’t you talk with a mental health professional for their expertise, just a consultation like you would with a tax professional like you do with doctors, you expect your clients to come to you.

Rocky Dhir:

I guess speaking from the other side of the discussion, I’m trying to put myself in that position where trying to reach out my taxes, I don’t know how to do my taxes. I could figure it out. It’ll take a long time and I’ll end up doing it incorrectly. If I’ve got a health issue, I dunno how to fix that either. I mean, I’ll take a couple of motrins and hope it goes away, but really at the end of the day, if I’ve broken my arm, I need somebody to help cast it for me. I think for a lot of lawyers, there’s this thought that they need to have their lives together, and if there’s something going on with them mentally, then they just need to go fix it or they need to keep a stiff upper lip or something like that. How do you fight that stigma? How do you get over that hump to say, okay, this is an issue that is a problem and it’s okay that I don’t know how to fix it myself? How does a lawyer or anybody else for that matter kind of come to the realization that they need help?

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

I mean, I think that’s the work of all of us. So talking about it in places like this, being a part of theBar Journal, a lot of state bar presidents talk about the importance of mental wellness in the practice of law. So I think we all talk about it. There’s a hope that as attorneys, as young attorneys age into the practice, that mental health and mental wellness is more common generationally. I think there’s less of that. Pull yourself up by bootstraps. That’s certainly a cultural phenomenon and hopefully the creation of community and that we can help each other. That’s my passion with the Texas Lawyers’ Assistance Program is creating legal community, like a place of caring where you can come and get some support, some resources, some help.

Rocky Dhir:

For those of you that are at your desks and listening in, I encourage you to go to the TLAP website. It’s www.tlahelps.org. There’s a number of different areas where TLAP can help, things like cognitive decline, substance of abuse, suicide prevention. But the big question that I would have reading this is when do I know that I need help with something? I mean, maybe if I’m having suicidal thoughts that might trigger something, but otherwise, when I read something like stress and anxiety, I’m thinking that’s just parcel of adulthood and being not only a lawyer, but just living in the world. There’s stress and anxiety. When do I need help with that and need somebody to come and talk with me about it?

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

I think it’s when it gets in the way of your daily life, stress and anxiety that prevents you from getting out of bed. I don’t know about you Rocky, but at my doctor’s office, they typically have a questionnaire that they ask that says, in the last two weeks, have you been sad? More days than not. And what that is is a very short, it’s called the Beck Depression Inventory. It’s a quick and dirty assessment for depression. So we have some of those assessments on our website, so thank you for highlighting the website. I think that would be one way to look and see is this getting in the way of your life? Then call us. The other thing is you can just call us and ask, we don’t want to be a crisis line. We’re certainly helpful in a crisis, but what we want to be is a resource line. So call us when you have questions and we’ll talk it through with you. Doesn’t mean you need therapy, it doesn’t mean you don’t. We’ll just talk it through, and the staff that I work with are fabulous people. We answer the phone 24 hours a day at a phone and text line, so can just call us or text us and say, Hey, I just want to know about resources, or I have an issue I want to discuss with you.

Rocky Dhir:

Speaking of phone and text and phones and how to reach people, does a offer actual counseling or where in this step of healing does TLAP come in? Not like it’s a first step, but I don’t suppose you’re hooking people up with actual counselors at that point or offering counseling services. I mean, walk me through what TLAP will do if I was to call right now and say, I’ve got an issue with depression, or I just realized I have a problem with alcohol, whatever it is, what does TLAP do from that step moving forward?

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

Yeah, we talk with the caller. What we are, we’re your peers, regardless of the fact that some of us have master’s level mental health training, we’re your peers. So we’re not providing actual counseling. We do have a telephone mental health line, so we can connect people who call with counselors, but what we do is talk you through the resources and help you connect with therapists. We have what we call lawyer recommended professionals. So we have therapists in different cities around Texas, psychiatrists. We have substance use treatment programs, and for people who can’t afford treatment, we also thankfully have a private trust that can help fund some counseling, some inpatient treatment. So from where I sit, that’s an amazing resource to be able to not only help people find a therapist, but also help people afford a therapist.

Rocky Dhir:

That part about payment. I’m glad you mentioned that. I think that’s something that a lot of folks think, I can’t afford it or I don’t want to pay for it, or whatever. Interestingly, it looks like this year, president Tisdale president Cindy Tisdale has spearheaded initiative to get lawyers more help. There’s a service called Better help.com, and I think that’s now become a member benefit of the State bar of Texas. Are you familiar with that? Can you tell us a little bit about how that works?

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

Yeah, so better help is a subscription service and you pay a monthly fee and you get a variety of resources through that, including individual counseling, access to groups, and as well as information. So it’s a fantastic resource. I think it’s great that President Tisdale has made that a member benefit. I think that’s the kind of focus, like making mental health something ubiquitous across the board helps people decide, am I going to use the benefits or not that are available to me as part of my bar dues? So

Rocky Dhir:

My understanding is that better health.com, there’s no in-office situation, it’s either over the phone or text or over video link where you’re talking with a therapist, at least from what I was able to gather, researching it. In your experience, is there a preferable way to access that kind of care? I mean, is it people my age, middle age, and getting up in years? To me, the idea of seeing a therapist is always, you go into an office and there’s a couch and you lie down and you talk about what’s ailing you. With modern technology that’s changing now, in your experience, are there advantages to being in person versus online? Is there one way that gets better results than the other? What’s your take on that as a psychologist?

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

I think there are benefits to both. So I think one of the things I like to find bright spots of the pandemic and the fact that therapists could go online meant that lots more people would access counselors, people in small communities. So let’s say you’re a lawyer in a small community in Texas and the only two therapists have been part of cases. You don’t want to go to them for your own issues. So having online therapy is a way that people can access mental health services regardless of their location. The other thing is it takes less time. So if you’re going to go Rocky to your therapist, you’re going to get there early,

Rocky Dhir:

Right? You’re giving a lot more credit than you should be, but yeah, that’s the idea. I’d aim for that.

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

Yeah, you get there early because you’re paying for the time.

Rocky Dhir:

I’d get stress and anxiety driving there. That’s the problem.

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

So the online therapy eliminates that. It just takes less time. There have been studies that say that online therapy is as effective as in-person therapy. I think there are times when if somebody is having a serious mental health crisis and in-person evaluation might be necessary. But for most counseling, and I think I advise people to go to counseling with goals and have the therapist kind of help them with practical strategies. Therapy doesn’t have to be laying on a couch for 15 years, like an old Woody Allen movie. It can be a short term resource that you use. Then you stop counseling. You work those steps, those skills in your life and practice, and then you have a resource. If an issue comes up, again, you can go back for a couple sessions. It doesn’t have to be a lifetime exploration of your childhood. It can be a lot more pragmatic.

Rocky Dhir:

Can you give an example maybe of where somebody might use this in a very targeted circumstance? I mean, I can devise my own, but as a professional on the front lines, what would you say are some examples of very strategic use of something like this?

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

Well, I think anxiety is one for sure. Getting specific skills, breathing exercises. What are the places where you’re experiencing the anxiety and what can you implement to try and change the course of that? Then you go and you try it and you see what works and come back. It’s like experimentation as opposed to some sort of lifelong issue. I think trauma therapy is also something that the counseling world has become a lot more adept at working through issues of trauma with a type of therapy. There are two types. They’re similar. One is cognitive behavioral therapy, thinking about your thoughts and how does it impact you. And then dialectical behavioral therapy, which is a subset of cognitive CBT, but it’s more strategies and skill-based than a lifelong exploration of your childhood.

Rocky Dhir:

It sounds like what we’re talking about here is maybe it actually makes you a better lawyer. Now it’s getting out of your way and you’re actually able to do your job better. But would you agree with that? I mean, that’s what it sounds like if you’re trying to look at it from a practical perspective, actually makes you better at what you do.

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

I agree completely. I think understanding your own motivations and getting skills helps you as a lawyer, but it also helps you with your clients, right? Our clients come to us in distress, and you can help them find resources for themselves so that they take care of themselves, they’re better witnesses. They can survive the trauma of the litigation. If it’s that. So

Rocky Dhir:

Let’s talk about TLAP referrals because that’s something I’ve always been told to be on the lookout for. If you see somebody who’s in cognitive decline or looks like they might be suffering from debilitating depression or on the verge of suicide, you see warning signs, then you should refer them and call TLAP tell ’em who they are, and they can get a call from a a volunteer. Two things there. One is walk us through the process of referring somebody, but even more importantly, maybe this is just for me, but I feel like if I’m trying to call TLA and tell ’em I’ve got a colleague or a friend who I’m concerned about it almost feel like I’m tattling on that person. Maybe I’m getting involved in sticking my nose where it doesn’t belong, and I need to just stay in my lane and not get involved in somebody else’s problem. Don’t judge them. Don’t just assume they’re going through a mental health crisis. Maybe it’s something else and I need to just mind my own business. If you could address those two parts, I think that would help. Not just me, but I think a lot of folks kind of understand where this third party referral might come in.

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

Absolutely. So part of our ethical duty as lawyers in Texas is to report impaired attorneys and you can report them to TLAP instead of the chief disciplinary counsel’s office. And I consider that such a kindness because what you allow us to do is to try and reach out to that attorney and see is there anything that they need in the mental health or substance use world? Do they need resources? What you would do, you would call us and talk to us and give us the attorney’s name and the specifics about the situation. And then basically, because of the nature of the confidentiality, that’s kind of it. We could never tell you Rocky weather. We made contact with that attorney. We also, when we do contact the attorney, we never tell them who called. Sometimes they guess, and we don’t confirm. We neither confirm nor deny.

Rocky Dhir:

Right. I got you.

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

Generally, people are conditioned to be polite. That’s my belief. And so people will often, when I call someone, I say who I am. I’m from the Texas Lawyers Assistance Program, and do they have a few minutes to talk about resources? And in general, they want to be polite. They don’t want to sound like they’re out of control or defensive, and so they’ll generally listen. And there are times when people are open to hearing about the resources and appreciative, and there are times when they just want to listen and kind of hang up. But nevertheless, I think they know that somebody saw them. And I tell people, if you call us about and you’re concerned about an attorney and you think nothing changed and you see something else, call us again. Because sometimes it’s not the first call. It might not be the second call. It might be the third or fourth or fifth call before they listen and say, yeah, I do need help.

Rocky Dhir:

So Michelle, unfortunately, we’re starting to run a little short on time, but I wanted to make sure that I asked you this one final question before we start wrapping up. And that is, in your role, both as a psychologist and as a lawyer and as a director of TLAP, if there’s one thing thing that you want people to remember about TLAP and about mental health, what would that be? What do you want lawyers to always keep top of mind if they can?

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

Well, I think it’s important for lawyers to take care of themselves, recognize, get to know yourself, and in that lookout for the legal community. I sort of joke that lawyers are the brunt of jokes.

Rocky Dhir:

Yes, we are

Michelle Fontenot, J.D., M.Ed:

Nobody cares. Nobody cares what happens to lawyers. So we have to care for each other. And I think it’s important for us to watch out for people who are in need and help them find resources. And we are just that. We’re a confidential resource for the legal community. We’re encouraging law office administrators, paralegals, lawyers. We do lots of outreach with law students that the legal community needs to learn to take care of each other.

Rocky Dhir:

Well, Michelle, thank you again for joining us today and for sharing this very important message. I do want to not only thank you, but I want to thank all of you who tuned in. I want to encourage you to stay safe and be well. Remember, if you or someone might need help, please call or text one eight hundred three four three tla. That’s 1 803 4 3 8 5 2 7. If you want to learn more, go to www.tlaphelps.org. That’s tlaphelps.org Remember, you could save a life your own or somebody else’s. We need you there as Texas lawyers. We all need each other. So Michelle, again, thank you. And if you like what you heard today, please rate and review us. An Apple podcast, Google podcast, or your favorite podcast app. Until next time, remember, life’s a journey, folks. I’m Rocky Dhir. Signing off for now.