Ten years ago, the State Bar of Texas launched Texas Lawyers for Texas Veterans (TLTV) under the leadership of 2010-11 Bar president Terry Tottenham. A former Marine, Terry saw the plight of many Texas veterans experiencing poverty and homelessness and implemented TLTV to provide pro bono legal services to both them and their families. Podcast host Rocky Dhir welcomes Terry and fellow past bar president and veteran Richard Pena to talk about what TLTV has accomplished in the past decade and how Texas lawyers can offer their help to veterans in need today.
Terry Tottenham is Of Counsel at Norton Rose Fulbright and served in the United States Marine Corps.
Richard Pena is president and CEO of the Law Offices of Richard Pena, P.C., and a Vietnam veteran.
State Bar of Texas
Texas Lawyers for Texas Veterans: Making a Difference by Meeting Veterans’ Legal Needs
Intro: Welcome to State Bar of Texas Podcast. Your monthly source for conversations and curated content to improve your law practice with your host, Rocky Dhir.
Rocky Dhir: Okay. So, here’s the thing. I just made a boatload of popcorn and got a soda in my hand. I hardly ever drink sodas, but I was preparing to binge watch. See, I was all excited to learn that today’s episode will be discussing TLTV. I’m no stranger to cool acronyms. It didn’t take me long to surmise that TLTV stands for Texas Lawyer Television, right? I was like, “Wow! A show about real Texas lawyers, this ought to be fun. Maybe, it’ll be about somebody I know.” Then, I read the memo. The memo took me back to the time from about 2001 until around maybe 2012-ish. I remember our troops going off to war in Afghanistan and Iraq. The support for our troops was palpable. It was everywhere. “Support the Troops,” the bumper stickers said. There were fundraisers for soldiers, reminders to thank our heroes for their service. Like you, I did my part. I donated. I thanked. I reflected on their bravery, but then the war efforts started to wind down. Our heroes started coming home, so many of them went from fighting for us to fending for themselves. Reading the memo on TLTV clued me into something. Our troops don’t just need our support when they’re fighting. They need just as much of our support if not more when they return home.
Richard Pena knows this. He returned home from war, a different war in a different time. Richard is a veteran of the Vietnam war. He left that theater on the very last day of American involvement. You can read all about his experience in that war and its aftermath in his book, “The Last Plane Out of Saigon,” which he co-authored with award-winning author and scholar, John Hagen. Richard has first-hand experience of the horrors both of war and of returning home from war. Richard, however, managed to make a resounding success of his life. He graduated from UT Law School Order of the Coif because, of course, he did and even served as President of the State Bar of Texas from 1998 to 1999. I could go on about Richard and spend our entire episode regaling you with his accomplishments, but let’s just say he’s a hero among heroes.
Imagine Richard’s delight when he learned that his longtime friend, Terry Tottenham, became State Bar President for the 2010 to 2011 term. Terry too is a veteran. In fact, he’s a marine. By the way, FYI, there are no former marines, just retired ones who would pick up a bayonet at a moment’s notice have called upon. Like Richard, Terry is no slouch. Since 1978, he’s been a leader at Norton Rose Fulbright in Austin. He teaches CLEs and has achieved a stellar career, but he never forgot his roots. You see, during his presidency, Terry established TLTV.
And now for the big reveal, TLTV actually stands for Texas Lawyers for Texas Veterans. It’s better than a television series and even more binge-worthy. It’s a statewide coalition of lawyers who provide pro bono legal services for veterans in need and their families. Terry touched a nerve. TLTV has been replicated in several states and is being considered by yet others. Terry proved yet again that the State Bar of Texas leads the pack when it comes to innovation and creativity. TLTV turns 10 years old this month, November of 2020. Terry and Richard have agreed to give us some insights into this marvelous initiative and, perhaps, inspire some of us to get involved. Terry and Richard or should I say Misters Presidents, welcome to the podcast.
Richard Pena: Thank you, Rocky.
Terry Tottenham: Thank you very much.
Rocky Dhir: Absolutely. It’s an honor to have two presidents on the podcast at the same time. I don’t think that’s ever happened. So, you know I’m kind of tickled to have you both here. So, Richard, let’s start with you. Let’s talk for a second about your book. Now, what did you hope that people would learn by reading “Last Plane Out of Saigon?”
Richard Pena: I hope that they’d learned the truth about the Vietnam war. I was in law school at University of Texas. After my first year, I got drafted. That’s when we still had the draft. I was one of the last draftees and lo and behold, I got sent to Vietnam. And when I went to Vietnam, I was assigned to the operating room of Third Field Hospital. The operating room — the Third Field Hospital at the time was the only hospital in Vietnam.
Rocky Dhir: It was in Saigon was it or where was it in Vietnam?
Richard Pena: It was in Saigon.
Rocky Dhir: Okay.
Richard Pena: Yes, it was. And I was an operating room technician, and we saw the horrors of war. We saw the realities. We saw the legs. We saw the arms. We saw the eyes. We saw the amputations. We saw the deaths. And war is upside down. It is crazy and that’s one thing that a lot of people don’t understand.
Rocky Dhir: They see the movies I guess. They see movies and they think it’s very glorious and really cool I guess, but what you’re saying is absolutely not that.
Richard Pena: It’s not absolutely not that and not only Vietnam. And so, I wrote my experiences and later turned it into a book, but there are some truths in war that the general population is not aware of and that’s what I hope to impart by the book.
Rocky Dhir: What’s that truth? Is there a way to kind of summarize it or is it a really complex multi-layered truth?
Richard Pena: One of the things that I say in the book is, as a result of war, you shall know the truth and you’ll be condemned to live in it forever because you saw the horrors of war, but you saw the beauty of human nature at the same time and not unlike the Afghani and Iraq veterans that you are referring to. War is war and whether it’s World War II, Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq, you are changed. The people are changed and they are forever changed to whoever goes there. Now, most of the people in war are youngsters and when they come back, they’re different.
Rocky Dhir: What was it like for you returning from war? Were you different and how did you — I mean, because you’ve had a very successful career. So, how did you — what was that like and how did you pick yourself back up from that?
Richard Pena: In the long run, I benefited greatly because I learned to question authority. I learned that you can’t always believe what you’re told by those in authority, and I learned to stand up for truth and to fight for justice and that benefited me throughout my law school career and as a lawyer.
Rocky Dhir: Now Terry, tell us about your military service. By the way, thank you both for your service to the country. I’m kind of at a loss for words, which is rare for me, but it’s always humbling to be in the presence of veterans like yourselves. So terry, tell us about your experience.
Terry Tottenham: Well, unlike Richard, I did not pull a ticket to Vietnam. By the time, I got into the Marine Corps, they had discontinued sending marines to Vietnam. So, I i dodged that bullet so to speak. My tour in the Marine Corps was at Quantico, Virginia for my initial infantry training, and then I was a lawyer in the Marine Corps first trying courts martial cases in Virginia.
Rocky Dhir: So, you’re in the JAG? You’re a JAG.
Terry Tottenham: I was basically in the JAG. In the Marine Corps, we don’t call it JAG. They like to say every marine officer is an infantry officer, but I had a legal billet and I was a lawyer in the Marine Corps trying cases at the trial court level and then handling cases on appeal at the appellate court level.
Rocky Dhir: And how long were you in the service?
Terry Tottenham: I was in the service for four years and really had great opportunity because I was able to get a masters of law at night at George Washington University on the GI Bill because I was stationed in Quantico, Virginia, which was only an hour or so out of Washington.
Rocky Dhir: Now, was your experience different from veterans returning from war or do you think there’s a commonality for veterans regardless of war experience?
Terry Tottenham: Well, I think there’s a commonality, but most of the marines with whom I dealt had come from service in Vietnam. So, I picked up usually enlisted personnel who had served their time in Vietnam. They were coming back for so-called garrison duty in the United States, and they were stationed at the Marine Corps base in Quantico. Those are the marines that I picked up only at the trial level and then, of course, on the appellate level, I would pick up marines who had come back to various bases in the United States from Vietnam.
Rocky Dhir: So, were you a defense lawyer or were you prosecuting these cases or were you on both sides depending on the case?
Terry Tottenham: In the Marine Corps, they start you out as a defense lawyer and once you earn your spurs, they give you the right to prosecute cases. So, I handled on both sides of the docket. On the appellate level, I was exclusively on the defense side of the docket.
Rocky Dhir: Now Richard, going back to your experience coming back home, I wouldn’t say you were one of the lucky ones because there was obviously a lot of your own effort that went into this. But what separated you from the troops who came back from Vietnam, who may have had less fortunate lives, you know, who might have suffered a bit more when they came back? What do you think was the factor that kind of separated those who went on to greatness after their military service and those who suffered whether it’s PTSD or whether it’s homelessness or any other types of mental health issues that soldiers might be facing?
Richard Pena: Everybody is different. Their upbringings are different. Character is different. I benefited by the fact that I was a bit more mature than the other draftees. A lot of them were just 18 out of high school. I had gone through undergraduate school, and I had a year of law school.
Rocky Dhir: So, you were what, 22 at that time?
Richard Pena: I was about 22, yep.
Rocky Dhir: Okay.
Richard Pena: 22, 23 and I think that made a difference. But also, when I was in Vietnam, I had the benefit of having gone through the 60s on college campuses of the protests against the war and having benefit of that experience. And when I was in Vietnam, the overriding emotion that I had was anger because I was angry that these young men were dying needlessly, and I think that fueled a lot of my book and it fueled me when I got back to go on through law school and to accomplish some of the things I’ve done.
Rocky Dhir: I’ll ask this to Terry, but really it might be for either one or both of you. What are some of the special needs that veterans have when they finish their military service that might be different from people in the non-veteran population?
Terry Tottenham: Most people assume that veterans only need assistance in getting their VA benefits. The fact of the matter is that a veteran has the same legal needs as any other citizen ranging from family law issues, a child custody, wills and estates, real estate issues, business type issues, a wide range of legal issues that any other citizen would face. These are the kinds of issues that our veterans face when they return from their service.
Rocky Dhir: So, how is that unique from — because, you know, you said a second ago that veterans have a lot of the same needs as non-veterans but, obviously, you started TLTV to try to serve veterans in some way. So, what are some of the unique needs that TLTV is trying to address?
Terry Tottenham: Well, the reason we started TLTV was to recognize what you have heard from Richard and his great service in Vietnam. These are men and women who have put their lives on the line for us and served in foreign lands in many cases, and when they came back from that service were discharged hit a recession in this country, they were in dire straits. They needed help. And so, we were there to hopefully provide the kind of help that we were trained to provide and, thereby, help them get back on their feet, and we owed it to our veterans.
Rocky Dhir: When you became State Bar President, was this something that you already had in the back of your mind to accomplish as president or did the idea come to you in the midst of your presidency?
Terry Tottenham: Actually, in the 2000 to 2008 time period, I was traveling all over the country handling cases, and I invariably would see these young men and women either going to or coming from Iraq and Afghanistan, and it really affected me much the same way as Richard was affected by seeing these young people and seeing what they were having to go through. So, when I became State Bar President, I was aware of the excellent program started by the Houston Bar Association with their great executive director, Kay Sim, and their Houston Bar President, Travis Sayles, to assist veterans. So, I basically piggybacked on to their program and took it statewide, which was really a very easy thing to do.
Rocky Dhir: You know, talk to us for a second about the genesis if you know it for the Houston Bars. How did they structure it? What were they trying to accomplish, and then how did you take that statewide?
Terry Tottenham: In Houston at the VA Medical Center, which was the Michael DeBakey VA Center, obviously there was a tremendous need in both Travis and Kay. Kay Sim’s father was a veteran. Travis Sayles’ father is the extraordinary past President of the State Bar of Texas, Jim Sayles, who happens to be a marine. So, there was a real lineage there.
Rocky Dhir: You had to throw that in there, didn’t you? Happens to be a marine.
Terry Tottenham: We all caught that. Well, we thanked the world of Jim Sayles and his leadership over the years, but there was a lineage both with Kay and Travis on veteran needs. So, they put this program together.
And one of the key factors that the Houston Bar program brought to the statewide level was the importance of getting our VA Medical Centers involved. When we first started this on a statewide program, we met a little bit of resistance from the veterans administration like, “Wait a minute. You want us to allow lawyers to come into our VA Medical Centers to give advice to veterans. I don’t think so.” Fortunately, because of the success of the Houston Bar program working through the Houston, Michael DeBakey VA Medical Center, we had that center’s director who served as our spokesperson to other VA centers around the state to convince them this was a great program. It would really help our veterans, and all of you need to get on board like we did in Houston to make this work. That was a key factor in making our statewide program successful.
Rocky Dhir: Now Richard, talk to us a little bit about your reaction when you heard that then President Tottenham was going to start TLTV. You know, as a veteran, what was going through your mind? Because, you know, I know you’ve been very active in TLTV. So, what did you think of it? You know, what did you contribute to it? And kind of talk us through your experience as a lawyer who’s been serving in TLTV.
Richard Pena: One of the beauties of TLTV and I found — I mean that struck me right away is that it’s not centralized out of the State Bar of Texas. It is like an umbrella. State bar is an umbrella, and the local bar associations run their own veterans clinics. I mean, I know it’s great. I mean, it was fantastic. And one of the reasons is that you have to understand the veteran to understand their needs.
Rocky Dhir: That’s an insight I hadn’t heard before.
Richard Pena: Well, the question is who are these people? And there are a lot of veterans that have been to war. To this day, TLTV is still given advice in helping Vietnam veterans, for example. But recently, we were told by Veterans Affairs that we have so many mental cases. PTSD is rampant. PTSD is rampant among Iraq-Afghanistan veterans and what we were told is it increases because it’s like a tsunami. The more deployments you have, the greater the PTSD will be. You know, people don’t know this, but from Iraq and Afghanistan, you’ve got over 450,000 PTSD or depressed veterans that have come back, about 345,000 over that suffered from alcohol and drugs.
Rocky Dhir: Wow!
Richard Pena: And this is 22. Twenty-two veterans are committing suicide a day. So, if this is the universe you’re talking about, their needs are a little bit different. They’re much more magnified and what a lot of veterans know is that when you get them back from war, you retreat. You have a hard time integrating into society. You don’t interact with your friends and life and survival is a lot harder. That’s where TLTV comes in and that’s why it’s such a great program because it provides legal need and legal help for those in poverty, those that are homeless, those that have disabilities because of COVID, I spoke with the Director of the Austin Legal Clinic Bar Association Legal Clinic a couple of days ago, and he tells me now that prior to COVID, you had a lot of older vets coming in. After COVID, what they’re seeing a lot of is younger vets, the Iraq-Afghanistan folks who have been terminated or got eviction problems. And when you talk about eviction, it’s not small potatoes. It is a big deal.
Rocky Dhir: Of course, sure.
Richard Pena: Why is it a big deal? It’s a big deal because what are you going to do if you can’t pay your rent if you don’t have a job? You’re going to become homeless. I mean, it’s estimated by the National Coalition for homeless that 20-25 percent of the homeless are vets, and every given day, 130,000 to 200,000 of vets are homeless, and in a year, up to 400,000 vets are homeless. So, that’s where TLTV jumps in is if you can prevent that eviction, it’s a cascading effect, not only for the veteran but for their families. So, it’s a tremendously great program I recognize that right off the bat when talking to Terry.
And I thought this is — “Why haven’t we done this before?” But Rocky, I do want to also commend the State Bar and commend Terry because it’s a vision and he has pulled it off. Normally, when you’re a State Bar president, you have an initiative and as you leave, well funny thing, that initiative goes away, but not Terry’s. It’s kind of a standing joke about State Bar presidents but not Terry’s. It has lived. Not only has it lived, but it’s a model for the country and I’m active in the ABA and I’m seeing a lot of these and his is the simplest, it’s the best as far as my concern is because it’s decentralized and it lets the local bars do whatever they want I want.
Terry Tottenham: I want to just follow up on Richard’s observation and very accurate observation about the large number of our veterans in homeless shelters and also I want to make a point to your listeners who might be asking themselves, well I’m not really experienced in family law or eviction law or whatever, so what can I provide at a veterans legal clinic?
When we first started this program, we held a session at the homeless shelter in Austin. I called the social worker at the homeless shelter and I had asked her to bring together a cross-section of the veterans’ population in the shelter. Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, men, women and I wanted to have a focus group. I wanted to find out from them what their needs are. If I brought lawyers in, what their needs would be and it was an incredible session because the one common need that they had didn’t have to do with some complex legal issue, it was simply getting bus tokens to go from the homeless shelter to the VA medical clinic and I said, “Ladies and gentlemen, that problem is solved. We got your back on that.”
My point being that veterans who have come into these legal clinics by and large are just looking for some friendly common sense advice and if you’re a lawyer out there who’s listening to this podcast, I guarantee you that you have the intelligence, capability, and wherewithal to provide the type of advice these veterans are seeking and the fact that there is a lawyer who is willing to take time to sit across the table and listen to their story and gives them the practical advice is so greatly appreciated by our veterans population. It is really a gratifying thing to see.
Rocky Dhir: I want to ask kind of couple of follow-up questions to the wonderful explanations that both you and Richard gave. The first question really, it goes back to something Richard pointed out. He said, “Really, the local bars are doing the on the ground work and TLTV is kind of an umbrella organization so what is a role that TLTV plays in this? What kind of support or mechanisms does TLTV bring to the table?
Terry Tottenham: TLTV provides basic background information for each local bar association. For example, we have brochures that are geared to lawyers to advise lawyers of the kinds of issues they’ll be addressing at the legal clinics. We have brochures for veterans that advise veterans of the kinds of services available to them. We have what we call a clinic in a box, which is literally a box of materials that will enable you to put together a veterans legal clinic in your particular area.
So we have a whole host of information background and materials that we feed to local bars so they could take these projects on at the local level and as Richard pointed out, it is very important that all this be done at the local level because it is the local bar association who has the best feel for where the veterans meet, what their needs are, where they congregate, who they trust, that sort of thing.
Rocky Dhir: But you’re talking about how — it sounds like there’s a lot of help in getting a veterans program started at a local bar association, what about thereafter? Is there some kind of continuing help that TLTV gives to these local bars?
Terry Tottenham: Yes. The local bar leaders come together once a year usually in July in Houston for the so-called Local Bar Leaders Conference.
Every year at that conference, we will have and I say we, myself or Richard or some other lawyer who’s been actively involved in the veterans program, will put on a little refresher course about lessons learned, what additional materials we may have to assist the local bar leaders in keeping the programs going or starting a program in their local area.
Rocky Dhir: I’m going to kind of confess something here and I don’t know, Terry or Richard, I don’t know which one of you feels more comfortable addressing this question. But for me, the hesitation in getting involved with the veterans initiative at a local bar level is not so much about the issues they bring to the table. It’s more will I be able to — or rather, let me switch that. Will the veterans be able to relate to me? I’m not a veteran and so, will veterans feel more comfortable talking to other veterans or can civilians like me still help them and do they feel like they can still build that rapport and trust with someone in my shoes?
Terry Tottenham: Our experience has been and we see this when we get testimonials from veterans that we put together for videotape presentations and things of that kind, that is not a barrier at all. Veterans are so appreciative that a lawyer would take time from their busy practice to sit across the table and listen to their plight and give them some common sense advice on how to deal with the situation. Now obviously, if you have a lawyer who has been a veteran, there is going to be an instant rapport between the two but I don’t believe that the fact the lawyer has not served should be any barrier whatsoever in coming into a clinic and adequately representing a veteran.
But I’d be interested in Richard’s views on that.
Rocky Dhir: Yeah, I’d like to hear especially since Richard was in a war theater and saw this so taking yourself back to when you came home, would you have been just as comfortable with the non-veteran as with a veteran in a situation like this?
Richard Pena: In my view, when a veteran comes back from war, anybody that can help them is welcome. They need help. Veteran needs help and anyone that can help is welcome. Now, of course, if you have been in the same war, you have a better understanding and of course a veteran feels more comfortable. But as far as veterans go, anyone that can help, the veteran hears a lot when they come home of “thank you for your service.” And that’s well-meaning and it’s appreciated but in the back of his mind, the veteran is saying, “Okay, so how are you going to help me?” It’s easy to say that
And I want to follow up on something Terry said about volunteering. If anybody’s interested in volunteering, just contact your local bar association. If you want to start a clinic and you don’t have a bar association that has one, contact the State Bar of Texas. It’s easy to start one and believe me, volunteers will swarm to this.
Now, one of the things that should not be an impediment, don’t let it stop you, because you’re not comfortable with the area of law, you’re not comfortable with divorces, with wills, with evictions, whatever the veteran needs, don’t let it stop you. I spoke with the director of the Austin Bar Association a couple days ago and he says a lot of the evictions are resolved. They’re resolved by picking up a phone, talking to the landlord, cutting a deal. So a lot of it is non-lawyer stuff and if a lawyer needed, then they’re referred out either to legal aid or we have volunteered lawyers.
And say, somebody has a particular expertise, you can just get yourself on the list as a resource and whenever that particular area of the law comes up, they’ll call you and say, “Can you help? Can you give us some advice?” Or “Can you help this veteran?” So it’s pretty easy and right now, patriotism may be in short demand but it’s pretty darn patriotic to be helping veterans.
Rocky Dhir: Now Richard, you pointed out the scenario. Let’s say your local bar association doesn’t have a program for veterans and if they don’t feel like they have the resources or the wherewithal to actually set one up, is there a way that an individual lawyer who doesn’t have that support structure around them could still get involved in TLTV?
Richard Pena: Yeah, sure. I would recommend the state bar does have a staffer dedicated to TLTV and they have an office. Just call the state bar and ask the staffer. One of the questions that comes up is okay, who funds these, especially if you’re a smaller bar or even like the Austin Bar, for example. Well, Texas Access for Justice Foundation funds a lot of this. They have a gala. You may or may not know about it —
Rocky Dhir: Absolutely.
Richard Pena: But if somebody — they say I don’t have time to get involved, okay, give money and dedicate it in Texas Access to Justice Foundation for a veterans clinic or buy a table or tickets to the gala and that will help out a lot because I know that for example, with the Austin Bar, they get I believe the $75,000, I may be mistaken but it’s more or less, and they use that for staff and it’s what the engine that makes that clinic run.
Rocky Dhir: Now one final question, Terry, in your case, when you started TLTV, did you ever foresee that it would grow to this point where others would start replicating it? Richard had mentioned earlier that sometimes the presidential initiatives just kind of peter out after the president leaves office and obviously TLTV is still around 10 years later. Did you foresee this?
Terry Tottenham: Well I don’t know if I foresaw it or not but I did set as a goal that we would continue this program into the future and that we would try to get these type programs at all 50 states because I knew that we had the ingredients for success. A, we had a great client base. Everybody wants to help a veteran. B, we had a project that was ready made for local bars to pick up and run with and every local bar wants a project. And C, we had the kind of initiative that would make lawyers feel good about being lawyers because they were helping a veteran.
So I knew we had the key ingredients for a successful program. It was just a matter of sort of reaching out and touching all the bases to implement it on a permanent basis here in Texas and around the country.
Rocky Dhir: So it turns out I lied. Actually, I got one last question after something you just said, Terry. So you said everybody wants to help a veteran and one of the questions that kind of swims around in my head is do people still want to help veterans? I mean I’ve heard and I’ve been told that after the war efforts started to wane to some degree, that the awareness of veterans issues started to also wane along with it. Do you think there is still as much enthusiasm for veterans or do we need to do more to try to educate people on the needs and plights of veterans?
Terry Tottenham: Well, I think since only 1% of our citizens actually serve, we do need to continually wherever possible educate people about the needs for veterans. However, I think that lawyers in particular are still standing in line and responding to the call for veterans help as Richard mentioned. He’s been very active in the American Bar Association and they’ve got a task force that’s looking at this in a wide-ranging way so that these programs are still very active and very viable and lawyers are still responding to the calls. So I don’t think that’s a problem.
Rocky Dhir: Richard, Terry, unfortunately, we are out of time. I could talk about this all day. This is a fascinating topic and congratulations to both of you on the success of TLTV celebrating 10 years and here’s to many more decades of success with TLTV. I also want to thank you both again for your military service and of course, your service to the State Bar and you guys joined us today. That’s a big deal. Thank you for that as well. So, thank you, thank you, thank you both of you.
Terry Tottenham: Thank you.
Richard Pena: Thank you, Rocky.
Rocky Dhir: Now, if you would like to learn more about TLTV, please be sure to read about it in the November issue of the Texas Bar Journal and finally, I want to thank you for tuning in and encourage you to stay safe, make sure you follow all applicable orders for dealing with COVID-19 and please advise your clients and loved ones to do the same. This situation is changing fluidly and quickly, so please seek out legal counsel if you have a question or have a need.
If you like what you heard today, please rate and review us in Apple podcasts, Google podcasts or your favorite podcast app. Until next time, remember life’s a journey, folks. I’m Rocky Dhir signing off for now.
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