State Bar of Texas Annual Meeting 2018: Legal Technology–Been There Done That

Episode Notes

Transcript

State Bar of Texas Podcast

State Bar of Texas Annual Meeting 2018: Legal Technology – Been There Done That

06/27/2018

[Music]

Intro: Welcome to the State Bar of Texas Podcast, your monthly source for conversations and curated content to improve your law practice with your host Rocky Dhir.

[Music]

Rocky Dhir: Legal technology. Love it? Hate it? Fear it? Well, guys, this is Rocky Dhir coming back to you here at the State Bar of Texas Podcast.

We are here at the Annual Meeting 2018 in amazing Houston, Texas and there is a lot of stuff to learn here. Technology is in the air. Everybody is talking about different aspects of legal technology, there’s cybersecurity and all these types of thing, and there is also Artificial Intelligence.

Well, with our friends at the Legal Talk Network, we bring you this type of amazing content straight from the annual meeting, and somebody we grabbed as he was walking by is my next guest. His name is Jason Smith. Those of you who have been paying attention to legal technology, he is no stranger to you. Jason is one of our top thought leaders here in this State on legal technology and where it’s going.

Jason, welcome.

Jason Smith: Thank you; thank you and welcome to Houston.

Rocky Dhir: Well, thank you. That’s right. This is your hometown, isn’t it?

Jason Smith: It is. It is.

Rocky Dhir: Yes, yes. And you’re welcoming a Dallas boy, which is kind of — I know that’s hard for you. You are grating your teeth as you say that.

Jason Smith: Well, I’m actually a Cowboys fan if I can say that on the air.

Rocky Dhir: Oh, man. Oh, yeah. You’re about to lose a bunch of followers.

Jason Smith: Or gain some, right?

Rocky Dhir: Yeah, and then you’ll gain a few. Have you been up to the Dallas Cowboys practice field at The Star?

Jason Smith: Absolutely.

Rocky Dhir: Oh, wow.

Jason Smith: Yeah, we actually did a company meeting up there the week before they played Green Bay last year.

Rocky Dhir: How was that?

Jason Smith: It was fantastic. I mean, it was every little 10-year-old Cowboy fan’s dream of growing up and being there.

Rocky Dhir: And the new practice arena and where they built it?

Jason Smith: Incredible.

Rocky Dhir: The Star is phenomenal.

Jason Smith: It is.

Rocky Dhir: It is really a cool place. So, well, good. We got a Houstonian who loves the Cowboys. So, we can be friends now.

Jason Smith: Okay. Cool.

Rocky Dhir: Yeah, we can be friends now.

Jason Smith: We got the secret handshake.

Rocky Dhir: We got the Cowboys joining us. Absolutely. Well, Jason, you have been kind of at the forefront, I would say, of legal technology, would you agree? I mean, you follow it.

Jason Smith: I do, and sometimes intentionally and sometimes unintentionally.

Rocky Dhir: Sure.

Jason Smith: Yeah.

Rocky Dhir: What do you think right now is the big legal technology issue that we all need to be kind of keeping our eye on?

Jason Smith: I think there are issues and I think there are sort of fears.

Rocky Dhir: Are there opportunities too, as well?

Jason Smith: Opportunities, absolutely. So, I think AI — and AI is an umbrella term for a whole host of things.

Rocky Dhir: Artificial Intelligence?

Jason Smith: Artificial Intelligence. So, natural language processing. We’re using that at our company with technology to scan contracts and be able to process the contracts, understand as a human reviewer would understand contracts but in a much faster pace, much larger scale, being able to identify semantic parsing of language, understanding context of language which computers have been able to do but not really trained.

Rocky Dhir: So, is it like detecting humor and sarcasm or —

Jason Smith: It can or just the difference between, for instance, if there’s a document that refers to tissue; determining based on the placement of words around it whether it’s referring to a Kleenex or whether it’s referring to soft tissue damage.

Rocky Dhir: Okay.

Jason Smith: For instance, for a muscle or something like that.

Rocky Dhir: Of course, right.

Jason Smith: So, AI is big. There’s a lot of different applications, and what’s interesting is in our sessions, we ask people, “How many of you guys use AI today?” And very few hands go up because they’re thinking Hollywood robots. The robots that are all coming to kill us all.

Rocky Dhir: Right.

Jason Smith: And they’re forgetting that literally, going through the toll road and letting the toll road assess the number of cars that have come by and adjusting the rates of the tolls.

Rocky Dhir: How many people in your car are carpooling?

Jason Smith: Exactly. And things like that, stoplights, smart technology within their cars or their mobile devices using the Alexa and the Siri. It’s all around us. And what’s really interesting is I think there’s a lot of talk about, a lot of these use cases where AI seems to be replacing a lot of administrative tasks, doing a lot of these duties where we’d normally have to do them, but we can’t do them as fast or we can’t them as large of a scale.

Rocky Dhir: And then the question is, are lawyers going to lose their jobs to AI? That seems to be the number one question.

Jason Smith: My response to them is robots — I just collectively termed “robot”.

Rocky Dhir: Sure. That’s fine.

Jason Smith: Robots are not going to replace lawyers.

Rocky Dhir: Okay.

Jason Smith: However, the lawyers who embrace and leverage the AI technology will likely replace those who don’t.

Rocky Dhir: Okay.

Jason Smith: And what I see — and oftentimes, I have people ask me, well, are these things — these mass contract legacy migration applications, these automated systems — are they going to replace the stuff we do today? And I think a lot of times they ask me as a loaded question, hoping I’ll say, don’t worry about it.

(00:05:01)

Rocky Dhir: Right.

Jason Smith: My response is usually, yeah. If you’re doing basic administrative tasks and that’s all you do, then you probably need to be replaced. What’s the value-add that you are providing? The technology can do some of this. Now, there’s some quality questions and so on. But what I didn’t kind of further say on that is that, a lot of the technology that we’re seeing rolled out while it’s replacing some activities, it’s also creating whole new fields of legal issues. So, think of the autonomous vehicles.

Rocky Dhir: Right.

Jason Smith: And car crashes, who is liable? Is this a product defect? Is it a product liability for the programmers? If the program and they’re selling their cars and they’re selling them with a marketing campaign that, our cars are designed not to crash.

Rocky Dhir: Right.

Jason Smith: Then, let’s look at the liability. Well, you have all sorts of different things now. We’ve seen Google Duplex. I don’t know if you’ve seen the video recently on the web.

Rocky Dhir: No.

Jason Smith: But they’re showing their new technology which you can put like an appointment in your calendar and say, need a haircut at such and such barber shop on Friday at 3 o’clock. And then you can activate it and your system will actually contact that barber shop and interact with the person that answers and literally have this conversation. And it’s the AI, it’s natural language processing because it’s processing, it’s in-taking their comments, processing it, formulating the response based on the algorithms that have been created and then it’s responding. And the person on the other hand doesn’t even know they’re talking to a computer. They’ve even added in some sort of nuanced in the midst of while the other side is talking.

Rocky Dhir: A slang?

Jason Smith: The computer is like, uh-huh, uh-huh.

Rocky Dhir: Oh, wow.

Jason Smith: So, you really think you’re talking to somebody. So, when I first saw that, somebody posted it on LinkedIn and said, here we go. This is going to replace the secretaries at the law firms or this is going to replace certain activities of people.

And I said, as a lawyer, I looked at this and said, hmm, seems to me there’s work here for lawyers, because what about things like wiretapping and recording somebody else’s voice because it’s got to be recorded in order to be brought back into the system to process by the AI to then interact.

Rocky Dhir: Right.

Jason Smith: So, to me, I see legal issues around that which means more work for lawyers. So, I’m not afraid of the new technology because I think there’s whole new world and that’s why I say the lawyers who embrace the new technology, I think those are the ones that are going to sort of move forward with a lot of the stuff.

Rocky Dhir: Let’s talk about two questions there. The first is, do you think the AI can commit malpractice then? If it’s learning through algorithms, can the AI commit malpractice and possibly mess up a case or mess up a matter?

Jason Smith: So, therein lies kind of the heart of one of the primary questions of how much do we let the technology do for us as lawyers and how much are we on the hook for our own professional responsibility.

Rocky Dhir: Sure.

Jason Smith: And frankly, I think the first start is going to be if it commits malpractice or does something that would look to be malpractice, then whoever is driving that system, the malpractice is going to fall to them.

Rocky Dhir: What if it’s a non-lawyer? Say somebody who’s — it’s a technology company that has created this algorithm to replace a lawyer or replace a legal function.

Jason Smith: Right.

Rocky Dhir: And then that commits malpractice. You can go after a lawyer, but there is some kind of a company or organization behind it.

Jason Smith: So, I think you’ve hit it on sort of this weird gray area in the technology and when you ask what’s popular right now, what’s the hot topics? I think that’s one of the sort of side topics to all of this. We talk about AI; how cool it is. We think of the Avengers and we think of all the cool Hollywood movies.

Rocky Dhir: Sure.

Jason Smith: Mostly those in-depth with robots killing us all.

Rocky Dhir: Not so cool then.

Jason Smith: Yeah, maybe that’s what we should focus on. And here’s a real distinction. A lot of what we’re talking about today and what’s out in the market is called Weak AI.

Rocky Dhir: Okay.

Jason Smith: It’s nothing but a series of algorithms that a program has been trying. Think of a computer playing chess.

Rocky Dhir: Sure.

Jason Smith: It’s not necessarily thinking like a human is. It’s reacting to how it’s been programmed to which moves are allowed, which moves are better. It can think ahead faster than a human most times what’s needed in chess. And so, when you talk about strong AI, when we’re getting into strong AI, that’s when we start talking about the computer learning from itself and the computer then starting to move into that world of thinking like a human and interacting like a human.

And I saw some statistics, I don’t remember the exact number, but the speed at which the human brain processes information and how long it will take the computers to get to even a fraction of that processing speed. Now, they can do the quantity. They can do the large amounts better than a human, but just the sheer processing.

Rocky Dhir: The depth, I guess — complexity.

Jason Smith: Yeah, it’s not there yet, but as rapid as things are going, we’ve moved from CPUs to GPUs, graphical, and now, you can increase the rate of speed of how much technology is sort of doing things; how many calculations are being done every millisecond.

(00:10:00)

Rocky Dhir: What about the community aspect of it. When we get AI and we have these devices that can do more for us. Say for example with that barber shop example you gave. Yes, it’s convenient to have an app that will call my barber shop for me. But at a certain level, it’s also — there’s a nice human interaction you get from just setting that appointment and talking to somebody and maybe joking with the person who answers the phone and having that kind of back and forth.

So, do you think that there’s going to be kind of a swing in the other direction as people say, look, I’m missing something from my like by not having that human contact.

Jason Smith: And I think we’re already seeing it. In fact, I had a conversation with my 17-year-old daughter, and my 11-year-old son. They both have mobile devices; they both play video games; they both interact with their friends through these devices.

Rocky Dhir: Sure.

Jason Smith: And it was actually my 17-year-old daughter, about two years ago made the comment. We’re out and about — and we let them take the devices like a lot of families do while you’re waiting at the restaurant —

Rocky Dhir: Sure.

Jason Smith: — it keeps them busy and —

Rocky Dhir: They check whatever social media they’re using.

Jason Smith: And my daughter and my son were playing a game against each other. They were chatting back and forth. They were sitting next to each other. And my daughter looks up and she said, you know what’s funny? She said, back in the olden days, which I think she was referring to when I was of her age, yeah back-ish, she did ask me what is it like to be born in the 1900s? Which actually made me feel old.

Rocky Dhir: The 20th Century; I know.

 Jason Smith: Where she said, what was really interesting was back then, the world was so spread apart because if you wanted to talk to somebody in Tokyo or France or Australia, you had to go there and see them and then there was the telephone or —

Rocky Dhir: Or pay a lot for long distance.

Jason Smith: Yeah, but even before that, you had to go there and interact with them. And she said, now, we have the ability to fly. We have the ability to video chat. We have the ability to interact with people, no matter where they are on the planet, instantly. And yet you see families sitting at the dinner table, all with mobile devices, not interacting with the people at the table with them. So, as the world has come closer together through technology

Rocky Dhir: We’ve gone farther apart.

Jason Smith: The world has gone farther apart at the individual level because of the technology. And I thought that was such an interesting revelation.

Rocky Dhir: Your daughter is way smarter than you.

Jason Smith: Way smarter.

Rocky Dhir: Yeah. No, I mean come on. Yeah, absolutely. Now, look. Let’s maybe step back for a second because this — I remember a couple of years ago, cybersecurity was what everybody was talking about —

Jason Smith: Yeah.

Rocky Dhir: — and then at some point, before that, it was about social media. And it seems like we keep going through these iterations where there’s some sort of technological issue that lawyers are wrangling with, and we don’t necessarily understand it, we’re kind of scared, we’re also fascinated. Is this just part of being a lawyer? I mean, have we been here before? What’s going on here?

Jason Smith: I think there’s two things in parallel.

Rocky Dhir: Okay.

Jason Smith: It’s part of being lawyers. We’re slow to adopt especially newfangled technology things —

Rocky Dhir: Okay.

Jason Smith: And so, that’s at play. But I think there’s also just this general technology cycle or even innovation cycle that you have the hype cycle where everybody is raving about something, whether it’s out of fear or excitement. Then you have kind of the use cases come along. It doesn’t quite seem as cool or really as great as everybody thought.

Rocky Dhir: Newfangled, yeah.

Jason Smith: And you kind of have this trough of disillusionment which is what it’s called. And then it kind of steadies out and people go forward. And that’s what we see, but on top of that, we compound it with the fact that we lawyers are sort of slow to adopt this, so we drag that cycle out a little bit longer, both on the hype cycle and the disillusionment cycle, I think. And so, we, as lawyers, look at it as every time something new comes up, a businessperson or just an average non-lawyer, if you will, will look at it as how does this benefit me in my life and my business, and increase for the better. Lawyers naturally look at things as how is this going to screw me up?

Rocky Dhir: Sure.

Jason Smith: How is this going to create risk or liability in my world? And so, they’re a little bit slower. And so, you have this trough that has almost like a parachute pulling it —

Rocky Dhir: Sure.

Jason Smith: But it’s still going through the exact same cycles, which is, everybody is excited; nobody really quite knows what it is, and I even mentioned this yesterday in our AI session that when touring and the other folks started this whole round of stuff. This was back in the 50s, mind you.

Rocky Dhir: Okay, sure.

Jason Smith: When the term “Artificial Intelligence” was coined, they said, look, Artificial Intelligence is not going to be called Artificial Intelligence once it starts working and people start using it. And what I always say is, AI sounds really sexy until you know what it is. And the way I boil it down is to say, think of a Rubik’s cube. A Rubik’s cube is nothing more than a series of algorithms. That took me 35 years to learn that, and now, I can impress my 11-year-old with my solving skills. It only took me 1.1 billion seconds to solve the first one. But it’s nothing more than a series of algorithms, and despite the fact that there’s 56 quintillion possible starting configurations of a Rubik’s cube —

Rocky Dhir: Yeah.

Jason Smith: — there are no more than 20 moves from any position that can get you to a solved puzzle.

Rocky Dhir: Wow, okay.

(00:14:57)

Jason Smith: And it’s algorithms; that’s all it is. And that in and of itself is the root of AI in Mathematics. And so, when you boil it down to that, suddenly kind of all the robot stuff doesn’t really sound as Hollywood like. It doesn’t sound as sexy. And then we start — once we kind of peel that onion back, then we start looking at, okay, what are the practical applications? And we’ve seen sort of the shotgun approach of everybody is coming out of the woodwork, with new tools, new gadgets, must see, as seen on TV kind of things everywhere you look, and some of them are going to fail and some of them are going to hit a homerun. And we’re going to kind of narrow down the focus of what’s real and what’s not.

We’re going to see more the use cases that are realistic, and some of them that are just sort of either pie in the sky or have no real relevancy even though they are neat. I think that’s what it is. It’s just that normal cycle.

Rocky Dhir: Have you seen this cycle over time?

Jason Smith: Yeah. So, I’m doing a session this afternoon where I actually had somebody give me annual meeting brochures from the State Bar of Texas Annual Meeting going all the way back to 1980 every year. And when I got those, I thought, well, this is kind of neat, historical, and then it got me thinking, I wonder what kind of technology sessions they were talking about, way back in the olden days, when I was a kid —

Rocky Dhir: During the Reagan administration.

Jason Smith: Exactly.

Rocky Dhir: Yes.

Jason Smith: Way back when —

Rocky Dhir: 99 red balloons, right?

Jason Smith: So, I’m going to take a look through these brochures and kind of see what kind of technology topics they were talking about. And it was sort of like history smacked me in the face. And I took all of these brochures, I took all the information, put them into a spreadsheet and then just looked at them, and I stared at them for days. And it almost sort of came alive and started talking to me. Instead of just a bunch of lists of technology topics, I started seeing these trends —

Rocky Dhir: 16:39 brilliance or you were going insane?

Jason Smith: There is a fine line.

Rocky Dhir: Yeah, it is, and you were right there.

Jason Smith: Right there.

Rocky Dhir: With the high wire.

Jason Smith: Exactly. And it’s that fine line, and I think in technology and with legal technology, we’re seeing it too. I always tell people that talented people hit the targets that nobody else can hit.

Rocky Dhir: Of course.

Jason Smith: But, geniuses are the people that hit the targets nobody else can see.

Rocky Dhir: Of course, well, that’s great.

Jason Smith: And so, when I started looking at these sessions, I started realizing that there was sort of the cycle of here’s new technology, here’s the fear, here’s the ethics and professional responsibility, now here’s how we use it in practice. And then it would be another set of whether it was using a computer, using email to communicate with clients.

Rocky Dhir: I remember the email thing.

Jason Smith: Hey, this is awesome, this is great. And then it was, oh, wait a second, professional responsibility, be careful what you do. Now, it’s — okay, why should you not be communicating with or why should you be communicating with —

Rocky Dhir: Sure.

Jason Smith: — clients in email and then social media? And then, I think the cybersecurity was sort of a big wrapper around all of it, which is, okay, now, we’ve just got data flowing everywhere.

Rocky Dhir: Sure.

Jason Smith: We got to be careful about it. Now, we’ve got AI, which is, okay, we’ve got all of this data, we kind of know we’re being careful because we have the cybersecurity stuff. But now, all this data can fuel all of this AI stuff, and so I think we’re going to go through this whole another cycle where this is all awesome and we’re seeing the second part of that cycle now which was the first part. Look at all these tools. Somebody’s developed an app that lets people fight their own traffic tickets. And the beauty of a lot of this is they are arguing leverage these apps for access to justice.

Rocky Dhir: Right.

Jason Smith: Think about bringing the technology to these people that couldn’t otherwise afford to hire an attorney.

Rocky Dhir: Or they’re distance-wide; they get pulled over some place far away from home.

Jason Smith: Yeah, and it’s a brilliant strategy to sell AI —

Rocky Dhir: Sure.

Jason Smith: Some of it’s probably legitimate, some of it’s probably just latching on to an idea how are you going to argue against access to justice for some of these tools. Then, you get the realization of, well, let’s talk about malpractice. Let’s talk about why you need a lawyer to help you in this situation or need some specifics. And we go through this new round of, well, let’s look at all of this data that’s out there and all this technology, and what’s interesting now is people are starting to look at the AI and starting to look at the biases inherent in AI.

Well, it depends on who built the algorithms, who’s feeding the information, what information. So, I don’t know if you remember about two years ago, Microsoft actually messed around with a chatbot on Twitter and it was all AI-driven.

Rocky Dhir: I remember that, yes.

Jason Smith: It was all AI-driven and it started responding to people. Well, if you spend any time on Twitter, you know it’s for lack of a better term, just a cesspool of commentary and social media. And, what happened was this chatbot started learning from the interactions it was having. Well, somehow, it started interacting with groups that were like Neo-Nazi —

Rocky Dhir: Oh wow.

Jason Smith: — and some of these real, like far out there hate groups, and it started picking up and becoming conversational in that same lingo. They had to shut it down.

Rocky Dhir: Wow, okay.

Jason Smith: It wasn’t so much that it got smart on its own like we think of in the Hollywood movies. It was just programs that were designed to take in what it was receiving, analyze it, and then respond to it.

Rocky Dhir: But its dataset was something that was mired in hate groups as opposed to —

Jason Smith: Exactly. And it just sort of veered that way and then exponentially got bigger.

(00:20:00)

Jason Smith: We see it too in a lot of the new AI — in order to have AI, you have to have data at the beginning.

Rocky Dhir: Okay, sure.

Jason Smith: So you’ve got these systems. If you’ve lost your password, you fill in a capture, you say — which of these have a picture of a cat on it?

Rocky Dhir: Right.

Jason Smith: You’re training the system to identify things visually in that respect versus natural language processing.

Rocky Dhir: Right.

Jason Smith: And so, you’re training the system and so now we’ve got seven billion people on the planet that are all training technology and it’s exponentially growing faster and faster, but what’s happening is people have inherent biases whether they understand them or not and what happened is some of these examples, they took just historical documents, just like historical American governmental documents, fed them into a system and said, we are going to crank out AI and do some things with this, and what happened was you started seeing inherent biases in the language that was used and you started getting different results from the output of the system, which nobody expected.

Rocky Dhir: Because the language that was used in those previous eras.

Jason Smith: And not even just the language, but sometimes, just the proximity of certain words to other words.

Rocky Dhir: Okay.

Jason Smith: Created this sort of inherent bias that flowed then and exponentially grew as the output increased with the AI. So it’s a fascinating —

Rocky Dhir: Which then brings us back to — what happens when the AI system either is biased or commits a mistake or what have you and then it starts to feel back into that cycle you just talked about, right?

Jason Smith: Exactly.

Rocky Dhir: And then you get to an equilibrium point until the next big issue comes up.

Jason Smith: I posted an article on Twitter yesterday and it was about this new app that’s coming out called Text A Lawyer and he is selling it as the Uber model for legal advice, and it’s something I’ve seen before when the Internet was early on which was a —

Rocky Dhir: I asked for a lawyer to take me to the airport the other day, but then I got the invoice and that was too much.

Jason Smith: Yeah, it was too expensive. Sometimes, it might be cheaper than Uber, I don’t know.

Rocky Dhir: You never know, yeah, it could be.

Jason Smith: But anyway, they — I put that up there and had some people saying, okay, this seems like it’s fraught with issues of malpractice and how is this going to be financially viable for the attorneys if they’re charging a certain amount in the company, the app and so on and so forth, and I sort of cynically responded, but then realized maybe it wasn’t so cynical.

Well, I’m going to go out and create an app that’s going to then respond to all of the ethics inquiries and represent me in front of the Bar Ethics Committee when my app goes haywire on this system, and so there’s always an app answer.

I think we’re just as muddled in stuff now as we were, in 1999, wondering what Y2k was going to bring us.

Rocky Dhir: So, I guess, the take-away may be for some young lawyers or even more seasoned lawyers is, not so much to fear AI, but to understand it maybe and to see where there might be opportunities and to try to take a more measured approach.

Jason Smith: It’s exactly right. I mean, you take it like you had approached anything in legal. Don’t fear it. Just ignoring it doesn’t make it go away and doesn’t help you, but if you can understand it and embrace it, I mean, think about making your legal arguments. Even if you don’t think it’s necessarily something that you can completely understand, figure out a way to understand it the best way you can and embrace it and enlist others, that’s what I do. I don’t do this alone. I mean, I’ve got a whole group of people that I lean on a network of experts and guys like yourself and —

Rocky Dhir: Like me?

Jason Smith: — like you, yeah.

Rocky Dhir: Oh, well, now you’re a suspect. You’re absolutely a suspect.

Jason Smith: A lot of these guys and gals in the State Bar Network and around the country in different groups, that they are way smarter than me and some of the stuff they’ve got figured out way before I do and then I just piggyback on the great thoughts.

Rocky Dhir: Wow. Well, Jason, this sounds like an entire conference in and of itself about AI, so I want to thank you for coming here, spending a few minutes just kind of giving us a sense of not only what it is and how AI works, but also maybe giving us a little bit of comfort that this isn’t the end of lawyers. This is just, maybe the next evolution or adaptation in legal practice.

Jason Smith: That’s right. I think we’re finally starting to learn to walk upright.

Rocky Dhir: Well, good. There are times, your feet hurt, you’re like I’m just going to crawl.

Jason Smith: With these conferences especially.

Rocky Dhir: I’m just going to crawl. I am going to crawl out of here.

Well, look, Jason, thank you for being here with us. Let’s certainly thank Jason Smith for his time and his wisdom, and this has been another fantastic episode of the State Bar of Texas Podcast. We want to thank our friends, the Legal Talk Network.

If you want to learn more about our podcast, be sure to check out legaltalknetwork.com. We also ask you to go in and give us a rating on Apple Podcasts, on Google Play or your favorite podcast app.

Jason just walked us through this evolution and this journey through time of legal technology and it just goes to show you that life is a journey, folks, so we want to thank you for tuning in.

[Music]

Outro: If you’d like more information about today’s show, please visit legaltalknetwork.com. Go to texasbar.com/podcast, subscribe via Apple Podcasts and RSS.

(00:25:03)

Find both, the State Bar of Texas and Legal Talk Network on Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn or download the free app from Legal Talk Network in Google Play and iTunes.

The views expressed by the participants of this program are their own and do not represent the views of, nor are they endorsed by the State Bar of Texas, Legal Talk Network or their respective officers, directors, employees, agents, representatives, shareholders or subsidiaries. None of the content should be considered legal advice. As always, consult a lawyer.

Continue Reading