Taking Stock (and Charge) of Your Life and Career: Build Your “Board of Directors”

Episode Notes

Transcript

Dave Scriven-Young:

Hello everyone and welcome to Litigation Radio. I’m your host, Dave Scriven-Young. I’m a litigator practicing environmental and construction law in the Chicago office of O’Hagan Meyer, and I also coach young lawyers on how to accelerate their careers without burning out. On this show, we talk to the country’s top litigators and judges to discover best practices in developing our careers, winning cases, getting more clients, and building a sustainable practice. Please be sure to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcasting app to make sure that you’re getting updated with future episodes. This podcast is brought to you by the litigation section of the American Bar Association. It’s where I make my home in the ABA. The litigation section provides litigators of all practice areas to resources we need to be successful advocates for our clients. Learn more at ambar.org/litigation as we head toward the end of the year.

Now is a great time to think about goals for next year, and one thing that I always coach lawyers to do as part of their goal planning process is to think about who among their circle can help them reach their goals. Since we all get by with a little help from our friends, developing a network of mentors and trusted advisors inside and outside our places of employment is key. Today’s guests are two powerhouse litigators who will tell us how they developed key relationships and succeeded as a result. Our first guest is Paula Hinton. She’s a partner in the Houston, Texas office of Winston Strong and previously served on the firm’s executive committee. She’s past chair and member of the Women’s Leadership Initiative and focuses on representing businesses and complex civil litigation. She has represented clients in courtrooms across the country before administrative agencies and in international and domestic arbitration forms to resolve a wide variety of disputes. Paul is the former chair of the litigation section of the State Bar of Texas and is also a longtime leader in the a a litigation section. Welcome back to the show, Paula.

Paula Hinton:

Thank you, Dave.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Anne Marie Seibel is our second guest. She’s a partner in the Birmingham, Alabama office of Bradley Aaron Bolt, Cummings, LLP. She enjoys pulling together the moving parts in multiform or multi plaintiff high stakes litigation and these cases. She partners with her clients to approach the challenges of litigation in efficient and creative ways. Anne Marie’s practice has taken her to trial in many diverse venues and within the firm, she’s co-chair of the firm’s Inclusion and Diversity Committee and former chair of the firm’s associate committee nationally. Anne Marie is the immediate past chair of the ABAs litigation section and has served in many other leadership roles. And Marie, so glad to have you on the show.

Anne Marie Seibel:

Thank you for having me.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Well, let’s begin by getting a sense of your career paths. Anne Marie, I know that you’ve been at your firm for more than 26 years, which seems very uncommon these days. So tell us about your path to success at your firm.

Anne Marie Seibel:

Well, thank you Dave. One thing I always like to mention is that I had no lawyers in my family at all. So unlike Paula, I didn’t have a role model right in my family. And when I was at law school, I really needed to lean on my professors to help me think about where my professional path would take me. One of my professors told me to look in Birmingham, Alabama because at that point in time it was tort hell. He had pegged me as a litigator and he said, there’s no better place to practice right now than with the high level of both plaintiff and defense bar that has risen up in Alabama. So I was from Maryland, I had never been to Alabama before, but I went down to interview and I was recruited and really found a great match with Bradley Aran. I was fortunate because when I showed up at the firm, I had mentors who looked nothing like me, weren’t necessarily similar to me.

Most of them were white men who saw some talent in a young female litigator from out of state and really took me under their wings, and I’m indebted to them for doing that. They gave me opportunities to have client interaction, make decisions very early in my career, really believed in me and spent time to talk to me about what my professional career could look like even before I could visualize it. And through their mentorship, the opportunities that I took advantage of and stepping up in cases. I’ve been fortunate to have clients across the country who have fully integrated me into their teams. So really the reason I’ve been here for 26 years is because I’ve been able to build a national practice from a city that’s very livable, and it also happens to be a firm that has been a great supporter of my A, b, A and community activities, which have allowed me to have a very well-rounded professional life.

Dave Scriven-Young:

So tell us about moving cities because I think a lot of people are interested in finding those opportunities that are perhaps not in their backyard. So tell us about that transition and how you made that, I guess, easier for yourself as you moved to Birmingham.

Anne Marie Seibel:

Well, it was a little bit of a natural progression in that I had gone to the University of Virginia, then I went to Vanderbilt and I just moved further south as went along. I was lucky to be in an environment between the law firms and banks and medical community in Birmingham that there were a lot of people who have moved here from other places and then you just start to appreciate what you have in your new surroundings. So for me, I now live 10 minutes away from the office. My husband rides his bike to work. Those are things that we couldn’t have done in some of the other cities that we were looking at, like Boston and dc. Then I’ve been deliberate over the years about getting involved in the community, whether it’s through my children’s schools or other community activities that I have a passion for to build up that network that now makes it feel like home.

Dave Scriven-Young:

And you mentioned that you had a great firm mentor that kind of allowed you to get acclimated to your new place and get client contact and that sort of thing. How did that relationship come about? Because I think a lot of people sometimes in their firm, they feel lost or lonely and don’t have that kind of relationship, or if they do have a mentoring relationship, it’s one of those kind of forced mentoring relationships that really don’t go anywhere, but it sounds like yours did. So tell us more about how that developed.

Anne Marie Seibel:

Well, it really all started by one of those Friday afternoon emails of who has the ability to help over the weekend. And it happened to be a weekend that I did, and I raised my hand and started working on a case with a partner who is down the hall who I admit, and he teases me to this day that I was scared of as a brand new associate. But I think what he saw was that I was willing to dig in, I was willing to use my judgment and was willing to speak my mind when I needed to, and then also really listen to his advice and listen to the way he and the other members of the team worked. And it became a matter of not only learning about the case that we were both working on, that was in a pretty intense stage, but also because he was involved in firm management, spending a lot of time in his office learning about how the firm was managed, what decisions were being made that you often don’t have insight into as an associate. And both of those combined led us to have a great relationship both inside and outside the office, but also gave me insight into what you need to be successful in a private practice, which is both having a professional acumen and the drive and the ability to counsel clients, but understanding firm economics, firm decision making, and what role you play as a young associate in all of that.

Dave Scriven-Young:

And it all started with raising your hand and letting people know you were available to work over the weekend. It’s a great story. Great lesson for all of us. So Paul, let’s turn to you. What have been some of your keys to success at your firm?

Paula Hinton:

Well, the first key to my success was listening to my father and not joining him as a small shop in a north Alabama small city to be basically a general practitioner. He encouraged me to reach for the larger, more established firm with high-end litigation. And so that’s why I moved from Alabama to Texas in 1981 to practice with the great firms here in a heavy litigation area where I viewed myself having more opportunities. The key to success in my current firm was to honestly hard work and to prove myself in this firm. I’ve been here 13 years. I came from a firm that I’d been at for over 20, and the key was earning credibility, building relationships, and showing I would work hard, dive into cases and try any case they would put in front of me. Similar to what Anne-Marie said, raising your hand and getting to know people and building the relationships in any firm is a key to success.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Well, and I understand that Paula and Anne Marie, both of you had had a long time mentoring relationship with each other and just very curious about how that relationship began. Anne Marie, if you wouldn’t mind telling that story.

Anne Marie Seibel:

Well, it just struck me in listening to Paula that some listening may have thought that we met somehow through Alabama, and it really wasn’t that at all. That just happened to be a coincidence. We met in one of the best ways and the ways that I find that the a sectional litigation provides fulfillment to young lawyers, which is that I went to a meeting that was an sectional litigation meeting completely on my own. I didn’t know anyone there, but I had decided I wanted to get involved and I was just going to show up. So I showed up at a women advocate committee dinner and the first person I met was Paula Hinton. And even though she was senior to me and could have ignored me, she immediately walked up to me, started making connections. In fact, I think she even called one of our mutual friends right on the spot that evening.

And then our relationship just grew. I can specifically remember the second time I met Paula, she’d had a new case come in that happened to be in Alabama. She talked to me about being involved in that case, even though I was a young associate and talked to me about how to be sure that I would get credit for helping to bring in the client even though I was going to be low on the totem pole at the time. And from that point forward, we’ve just shared professional and personal successes and trying times all through that chance encounter at a sectional litigation meeting.

Dave Scriven-Young:

So Paul, I’m curious. I think a lot of people tend to go to bar association meetings and look for their friends and want to catch up with people that they know, but you took it upon yourself to take a new person under your wing, so to speak. Why did you do that? Tell us kind of what was your motivation there?

Paula Hinton:

Anne Marie has told that story, and I look back and I do vividly remember going up to her. I’d like to think I’m a great judge of character and I see people that I absolutely want to get to know immediately, but that’s probably true. It probably is as simple as that, that I spotted someone that I could tell was on their own, didn’t know anyone but who was putting herself out there to meet individuals. And it truly has grown from there. I’ve probably gotten more out of the relationship than Ann-Marie has over the years because of her great friendship and judgment. And as I say, she and I have built an incredible board of directors among the a litigation section that has assisted all of us over the years on personal, professional, all aspects of our lives.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Well, let’s talk about some of those topics. Anne Marie, I know that there are some things that Paula has helped you with over the years. Can you give us some examples?

Anne Marie Seibel:

So I think the first one that I would mention that Paula knows how to own a room, take a seat at the table and use your voice appropriately when you’re there. That is something that she’s been a role model for me and many others on and hasn’t hesitated to talk about the strategy of when and where you do use your voice when you found your way to that table. She certainly pushed me to a few tables along the years, and I appreciate that. And then the other big mindset change that Paula helped me with was to banish the idea of balancing work and life. She very wisely many years ago, said, if you think of it that way, you’re always going to feel like you’re walking on a tightrope and you’re always going to feel like you’re falling off, but instead think of managing work and life. And I remember as she was telling me this, I was the manager on a very large piece of litigation, which was requiring me to manage both that litigation and how it was affecting everything that I had going on at home. But what I realized was I was a pretty good manager. I wasn’t a great balancer, but I was a good manager. And having that change of mindset as been a great way that has kept me in the game for so many years.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Paula, this is very much a two-way street relationship with Anne-Marie providing you with advice as well. What is some of the things that Anne-Marie has helped you with over the years?

Paula Hinton:

Well, I have to sort of admit to the group and to your audience that I’m a little bit of a bull in a China shop. I have very strong opinions and thoughts on things. And as my son has said, mom, you’re a little bit strong. I was never as gracious as my mother who would say, well, don’t do what I say and ruin your life with a twinkle in her eye. The great thing about Anne-Marie is her style. I have always worked well and in organizations and worked incredibly well with people like Anne-Marie, while I may be the one to throw out a really difficult concept or idea into the room, Anne-Marie is a consensus builder. She’s the, what Paula really meant to say was X, where the two different styles we can get to our end by using both ends of the spectrum and bringing people along. So she has assisted me in recognizing that style in myself, and it is a well-known leadership style. Some people call it the leader who gets out in front of his troops and his troops shoot him. I need people like Anne-Marie, not only on a friendship level to bring me into a zone, but also in making change happen within the A BA and assisting other people. That’s how she’s helped me.

Dave Scriven-Young:

And I think both of you are great examples and have strengths in different areas, and that’s why I love having both of you on the show today. So really appreciate that. And Anne Marie, you talked about managing work life, not just balancing it. How have you approached this concept over different stages of your career? I know that it’s been very important to have a support throughout the process. Can you talk a little bit about how you’ve managed work life over the years and how it’s changed?

Anne Marie Seibel:

Well, I think one thing that has been particularly important in the mentorship that Paula has given me and what I would encourage other young lawyers to look for is that I think when Paula and I met her son was probably in high school at the time, it was a good time for me with toddlers to look ahead and realize that my career was going to be a long one. I remember when Paula sent her son off to college, which I have just done, and reflecting upon the fact that she was going to practice for another 20 years after he went to college and that I needed to be thinking about that early in the process. I think having that perspective was a great way of matching the idea of managing work and life, which was there were different things that I could take on at different points in my career and different points of my family life.

And looking for a mentor who is ahead of you in that process was a way of reminding myself that when my kids leave for college, where do I want my career to be at that stage? What do I want to be doing? What do I want to be involved in? What are some of the things that I may put off early on because the management was a little bit different and Paula has been a great advocate for that, including the rest of our board of directors that happens to have people from all different stages. And I think that’s one of the things that often is missed in mentoring is the importance of mentoring up and down. So it was great to hear that I helped Paula in some way, but that the mentoring relationship works best if it is two ways because you’re learning things from each other constantly.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Absolutely. And Paul, my question for you is Anne-Marie talked about there were things that perhaps she needed to put off and perhaps say no to at a given time because of the ability, because it would affect the ability to manage work and life. What are some things that I think young lawyers need to think about about saying no at certain periods of time because we can’t do everything?

Paula Hinton:

Well, I think the first thing to learn, and I was late to learn this is no is a complete sentence. You don’t always have to feel guilty. You don’t always have to explain when you have to say no to something. Just remembering no is a complete sentence without the guilt and the explanations is important, but as I’ve said for years and I’ve been through it, there are three basic aspects of your life. There is your personal life and goals, your family life and your professional life, and you can’t be perfect at all of those all the time. So you have to figure out at different stages of your career and your life, which of those and within those do I need to say no to? Because it’s pulling on some other aspect that’s more important. I think that is a tough battle, male, female, we all have in the arena of saying no and taking those three aspects and figuring out at given times what to say no to.

Anne Marie Seibel:

Then Paula, I think I’d add if I could that as litigators we have that added stress of the fact there are times where you can’t say no, where our schedules are dictated by trial schedules. And I can think of periods of my time where there was no option for me to say no to that part of my life because I was in trial and I know you have been as well and learning how to manage through that. So when you’re on the other side of it that you do take control of those aspects of your obligations where you have a little bit more control. Exactly.

Dave Scriven-Young:

That’s a great point and would love to delve a little bit more into that Anne Marie, because I think it’s a hard conversation with a family member or with friends because if you have to work, if you have an emergency that occurred with a client or with trial or that sort of thing, how do you have those conversations? Or is it a matter of preparing them ahead of time? How do you go about managing those expectations with people that you love?

Anne Marie Seibel:

I think it is explaining the life of a litigator and the things that are out of your control. It’s not easy. We’ve all ramped up for trials that get continued at the last minute or trials that settle. So sometimes it has taken, when I actually pack the bags and leave the house, my family is saying, oh, it actually happened this time. We all know that. But it’s just a matter of explaining what those deadlines mean so that everyone around you understands it. I mean, there was definitely times I was in a very extended proceeding when my children were young, but they understood where I was going. I tried to put the trial facts into terms that they could understand. They understood what I was doing. And then when I was home, worked on setting side time to focus just on being home. And that’s the way you build that trust over the years that you’re always going to come back no matter what’s happening at work and vice versa.

So having a team at work that you can call in the case of an emergency, I always tell our young lawyers, you are going to live your life with the people that are on your hall. You are inevitably going to have to call team members for a death of a family member for some kind of life crisis and try to build up those types of relationships at work so that you have someone you trust to make that call, who is willing to take an exhibit list off your plate at the last minute because they’ve built up a friendship and trust with you that you would do the same for them.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Very smart. Paul, any other thoughts on how to have those tough conversations?

Paula Hinton:

Absolutely. Thank you. I’m sitting here smiling because I just got dropped in to try a case next Monday. I’ve been in it the case for two weeks. But what Anne-Marie says is absolutely right. First, I had to explain to my husband that I am unavailable for the next two and a half weeks in this emergency. I chose my partner well in that regard. Second, I had plans in New York with a very close friend next week that I had to let know. I couldn’t be there, and that was something I had to do, but she was understanding due to the nature of the job and third Anne Marie’s, right? I had to walk down the hall and tap my associates and junior partners to say, we’re about to dive in. But I had built up that trust, I believe, with all three of those groups that understand what this means and that with friends and family. I’ll be back in a couple of weeks and we’ll get back on track on that front, but it is, it’s part of relationships and building the trust among all those groups and friendships and all those groups.

Dave Scriven-Young:

One of the things that I think both of you had shared during this conversation is your personal board of directors or personal networks that have really been key to your success. And Paul, I wonder if you wouldn’t mind sharing a little bit more about how those relationships have influenced perhaps your career decisions or other aspects of your life and career.

Paula Hinton:

Well, I think this group that Maria and I are part of is a group of women we could call 24 7 with any problem in our life. And I think that is a sense of security that this group we view with good judgment measured going through different stages of the lie. I think that gives me myself a sense of security in terms of decision-making that I can have a reach out and it’s a totally safe place. But for the a ABA, Litigation, Section, I wouldn’t have found Anne-Marie or any of these women in this group that live across the country.

Dave Scriven-Young:

I guess Anne-Marie, just give us a little bit more detail on how it goes. Is it by email texts in person meetings? How does, or is it just as issues come up, you call each other and it’s just a very informal kind of relationship?

Anne Marie Seibel:

It’s both. So certainly anytime there’s a sectional litigation meeting, a group gathers and enjoys meeting each other. I just attended the wedding of one of my board of directors members, her daughter. We are supportive of each other’s social events and life events as well, and certainly through text. And it really is everything from life-changing illnesses to job changes to crises with children. Anything is on the table because of having built up trust over the years. And some of it is through doing things that are non-legal related. So one of the members of the board of directors and one of my mentors, she and I spent a bunch of time planning women advocate committee dine arounds, not a particularly glamorous job. It’s one of the ways that you start up doing section work, but through that constant back and forth, we built a relationship. So it’s another thing where I just urge younger lawyers to not turn down those kinds of opportunities because they can lead to much deeper meaning. And that is what you’re trying to do over the course of a 30 year career.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Absolutely. And you mentioned young lawyers. There are some young lawyers who I think feel that partnership or career advancement can feel slow. It takes a long time. Maybe they don’t know exactly what’s happening at their firm. So what advice Annmarie would you have for young lawyers who are eager for growth but may feel frustrated by the pace?

Anne Marie Seibel:

My best advice is to remember that it is a marathon, not a sprint, no matter what the path is going to be. And I think that we are so conditioned up through law school of advancing a grade each year, always trying to be a students, and you think you have to be on the exact same path as everyone that is in your grade. And when you get to a law firm is what my perspective is. But even in other settings that it’s not like that anymore. It’s not that you have to move up in exactly the same pace as everyone that is on your hall or who started in your class with you. Instead, you need to take ownership because now this is something that you are going to live for the rest of your career and to not worry about it all happening at once.

I mean, I can see it in the group of people that started with me. I remember distinctly in the midst, I was on a really big case. Someone else was taking a ton of depositions. I was worried about the deposition experience I was missing. That other lawyer was worried about the big case experience they were missing over time. It all evens itself out and you get the experiences that you need if you raise your hand correctly and make it known that you want them. So don’t try to get everything at once and don’t compete with those around you in doing so.

Dave Scriven-Young:

I love that. Paul, any other thoughts on kind of career advancement for young lawyers?

Paula Hinton:

I would say try in what you do in your work to make a difference, whether it’s on that case, whether it’s in a a activities, work hard, do good and have fun. Those are mantras I try to live by and show whatever aspect of your life that you will get it done and you are there to make things happen.

Dave Scriven-Young:

And young lawyers, I think at this point in time, face different challenges. And I think we did when we were young lawyers. Anne Marie, do you have any tips for young lawyers in dealing with these new challenges, especially post covid challenges?

Anne Marie Seibel:

I do think the world has changed in terms of your opportunities for mentorship. So we were talking about one of my key mentors. Part of the way we built that relationship is that for me to get his attention, I would need to go sit in his office, which meant that I would listen to him finish a conversation with another client, we would then talk about that conversation. I’ve learned a little tidbit from that. Then we get to the work at hand. Now our worlds are scheduled by Zooms. It is rare that someone is just popping into my office. It’s almost always scheduled because there’s so much zoom time. So I think both partners and young associates need to recognize that those interactions where you’re just learning about how to be a lawyer and how to talk to clients are harder to come by and carve out time. And I’d recommend that associates say, can I just sit in the background while you’re having that client call? Can I come to the meeting and just be there to learn? I just don’t think we’re doing it as naturally as we used to. And so both the partners and the associates need to make room for that.

Dave Scriven-Young:

And Paula Partners, by and large are open to those kind of conversations. Correct. Because otherwise, how else could young lawyers figure out what they need to figure out in the context of this new environment?

Paula Hinton:

Absolutely. I just spent this past weekend in the office working and a brand new lawyer. I think he probably could have worked from home and done what needed to be done, like some of the others on the team did. But he came to the office. I think he wanted that in-person mentoring and guidance on how do you prepare a case for trial and it will pay off for him. So some of it’s as simple as be in the office so you can walk down the hall because I know Anne Marie’s door is open, my door is open. We want to build the next group of great lawyers and to help. So showing up is the first lesson to learn.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Love that. And we’ve talked extensively, I think in this conversation about the A BA and particularly about the ABA, Litigation Section. Anne Marie, you just wrapped up your term as chair of the ABA Litigation Section. Any highlights or observations that you’d share about your time as chair? Sure.

Anne Marie Seibel:

It was a real privilege to serve as chair, and we are fortunate in the section to have chairs that represent lots of different aspects and images of what it means to be a litigator. I was motivated to take the role by a desire for young lawyers and the younger generation of women in particular, to see that there could be a woman in charge who is leading from a different perspective. As Paula said, trying to be a consensus builder. That was something that the board of directors that we’ve talked about was urging me to step up even when I didn’t necessarily think I was ready for it. But to be pushed into that role was really a great honor. And one of the biggest honors of the year was at our section annual conference, we had the current attorney general there and attorney generals from different administrations reaching back a number of years, and they spent time talking about how much the institutions of our democracy mean regardless of who the president was, what their political affiliations were. And that’s one of those meaningful moments that I’ve been reflecting on a lot as we’re in a difficult season and there’s high anxiety over this election, but to realize that we as litigators and as lawyers have such a critical role to play in upholding our institutions. And I’m just grateful to have been a witness to that conversation,

Dave Scriven-Young:

And it was an incredible year. Paula, turning it over to you. Any thoughts about your time in leadership in the A BA or other borough associations? I know you’ve been active in your state bar as well. Tell us about some of that work and how it’s helped you to succeed.

Paula Hinton:

Well, I think the success part of it is building relationships and finding people to trust across the country, to send your clients to when they need help in Birmingham, et cetera. How I’ve benefited is through the great programs and working on some of the great programs like the Professional Success Summit, the Diverse Lawyers Trial Academy, numerous, numerous programs that the ABA, Litigation Section has where you can also give back and you can give back in your section as a mentor to others who are coming up behind us, like the JO program assisting in that and the interviews and receptions for those young, bright JO clerks. So it’s just given me a great outlet within my profession to satisfy that need to give back and to build relationships.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Well, this has been a great conversation. We are unfortunately, at the end of our time together, so wanted to open it up for any last thoughts that you might have. Anne Marie, let’s start with you. Any kind of last thoughts that you might want to leave with our listeners?

Anne Marie Seibel:

Well, thank you for having this conversation, Dave. I think it’s so important for us to highlight mentoring relationships and to really give guidance to people who want to grow professionally. And I hope that anyone listening who has questions either about the section or about how to grow professionally as a lawyer will feel free to reach out.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Wonderful. And Paul, I’ll turn it over to you.

Paula Hinton:

I would say come join us in the work of the ABA Litigation Section and find your own personal board of directors.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Absolutely. Well, Paul Hinton and Anne Marie Seibel, thank you both so much for being on the show today. It’s been a real pleasure to have both of you on.

Paula Hinton:

Thank you, Dave. Thank you.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Now it’s time for our quick tip from the A litigation section, and I’ll be giving the tip today because I have a passion for goal setting. And as I mentioned, this is a great time of year to be thinking about setting goals for next year. So let’s talk about defining your career goals early and working toward those goals. The first step in crafting a successful legal career is knowing where you want to go. Every young lawyer enters the field with a different vision of what success looks like, and for some it might be making partner at a prestigious law firm. For others, it could be transitioning to an in-house counsel role, moving into government work, joining a nonprofit, becoming a professor, or even running for public office. And some might even dream of leaving the profession altogether to pursue a completely different path. The key to thriving in the legal world is to have a clear understanding of your own career goals and to work intentionally toward them from the very beginning.

So the first thing you want to do in terms of personalized goal setting is to take stock of your interests, values, and long-term aspirations. What drew you to law in the first place? What aspects of legal work are you most passionate about? Your career goals should align with your core values and the kind of life that you want to live, and then you want to build toward your goal. So once you’ve identified your ultimate career goal, map out a plan to achieve it. If your goal is to make partner focusing on excelling and billable hours, building strong relationships with senior partners and developing a robust client base, if you’re more interested in going in-house or working in government, start cultivating skills that are particularly valued in those settings like compliance, regulatory knowledge or public policy. Whatever your goal, take advantage of every opportunity to gain relevant experience, build your reputation, and expand your network.

And as Anne Marie and Paula said, make sure that you’re raising your hand for the things that you want to do. Seek out mentors who have already walked the path that you want to follow and learn from their experiences. You also want to remain flexible. So while it’s important to have a clear vision, the legal profession is full of twists and turns. Be open to opportunities that may not fit neatly into your initial plan, but could still help you grow and advance because goals can evolve over time, and the ability to adapt is crucial to sustaining a successful career in the law. So that’s all we have for our show today, and I’d love to hear your thoughts about today’s episode. If you have comments or questions you’d like for me to answer on an upcoming show, you can contact me at dscr Young at O’Hagan meyer.com and connect with me on social.

I’m ad attorney Dsy on LinkedIn, Instagram X and Facebook. You can also connect with the ABA, Litigation Section on those platforms as well. But as much as I’d like to connect with you online, nothing beats meeting you in person in one of our next litigation section events. So please make plans to join us at the 2024 Professional Success Summit taking place November 7th and eighth in Atlanta. The Summit features empowering programming to help you unlock your professional potential. Whether you seek valuable trial tips, engaging networking opportunities, insight from leading lawyers and judges, or CLE Credit, you will leave this inclusive summit with tools and practical insights to help you achieve your greatest heights. Register today at ambar.org/pss 2024. If you’d like the show, please help spread the word by sharing the link to this episode with a friend or through a post on social and invite others to join the show and community. If you want to leave a review over at Apple Podcast, it’s incredibly helpful. Even a quick rating at Spotify is super helpful as well. And finally, I want to quickly thank some folks who make the show possible. Thanks, Tom. Michelle Oberts, who’s on staff for the litigation section. Thanks. Also goes out to the co-chairs of the Litigation Section’s audio content committee, Haley Maple and Charlotte Stevens. Thank you to the audio professionals from Legal Talk Network. And last but not least, thank you so much for listening. I’ll see you next time.

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