10 Tips For Summer Associates: Turn That Summer Program Into A Job

Episode Notes

Transcript

Dave Scriven-Young:

Hello everyone and welcome to Litigation Radio. I’m your host, Dave Scriven-Young. I’m a commercial and environmental litigator in the Chicago office of the Peckar & Abramson, which is recognized as the largest law firm serving the construction industry with 115 lawyers in Lebanon offices around the us. On this show, we talk to the country’s top litigators and judges to discover best practices in developing our careers, winning cases, getting more clients, and building a sustainable practice. Please be sure to subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcasting app to make sure that you’re getting updated with future episodes. This podcast is brought to you by the litigation section of the American Bar Association. It’s where I make my home in the ABA. The litigation section provides litigators of all practice areas, the resources we need to be successful advocates for our clients. Learn more at ambar.org/litigation.

Well, it’s summertime and it’s a great time to recharge, take vacations, spend time with family and friends, right? Well, it’s also summer associate and clerkship season, a great time for law students to get great opportunities at firms to network and learn what it’s like to work at a potential employer. So what should Summer Associates and Summer clerks be doing to make the best of use of their time and to ensure that they have a job waiting for them at the end of the summer? Well, our guests who help run a summer program are going to help us out with 10 tips for summer associates. So my first guest is Debrán O’Neil. She’s a partner at Carrington Coleman, a full service law firm providing litigation and transactional services to business clients based in Dallas, Texas. Debon is the hiring partner and in charge of Carrington Coleman’s summer associate program. She’s a well-rounded trial lawyer who practices commercial litigation. Her experience handling commercial cases across a wide variety of industries includes handling business disputes, commercial litigation, breach of contract actions, products liability and personal injury defense matters. Debrán, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Debrán O’Neil:

Happy to be here. Thanks.

Dave Scriven-Young:

And my second guess is Monica Latin. She’s the managing partner of Carrington Coleman. She’s a national commercial litigation practice in which she counsels organizations through Courtroom trials, arbitrations and appeals. She handles disputes arising in a variety of arenas, including professional services, business ownership, real estate, employment, technology, manufacturing, retail, non-competes, trade secrets, and many others. Among her many activities, she has held many leadership positions in the A litigation section and is currently a member of the sections. Council, welcome to the show, Monica.

Monica Latin:

Thanks so much Dave. Happy to be here.

Dave Scriven-Young:

For all of our listeners, we’d love to get to know you a little bit better. Monica, can you start us off and let us know? Can you give us a high level overview of your career path?

Monica Latin:

You bet. After law school, I did a judicial clerkship, but in the meantime I had served two summer associate positions back in the day when it was common to split your summer between two firms. And one of the firms I had worked for in the summertime was Carrington Coleman, and I received an offer that I accepted. So after law school I did a judicial clerkship and then joined the firm. And believe it or not, I’ve been here ever since. So some ways it’s a pretty boring resume. I was an associate at the firm and then became a partner and eventually became the head of the business litigation practice group and then joined the firm’s executive committee about 10 or 12 years ago and served in that role until about four years ago. I became the managing partner of the firm. So I’ve held pretty much all of the roles you can hold in a law firm, and I’ve been here my entire career.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Well, it may be a boring resume to some, but to me it’s a really impressive resume because you don’t see that really anymore. People disdain their entire career at one firm. So what are some of the things that led you to success at Carrington Coleman and eventually rising to the level of managing partner?

Monica Latin:

Yeah, I love this question. I don’t think it’s all what you do. I think it can be where you are and who you’re surrounded by. I do think it’s important to not overlook the importance of really hard work along the way, learning the craft. The nerd in me was always interested and still is interested in understanding the law, not just what’s in front of my face, but really dedicating myself to knowing the law, knowing the practice, learning the craft of litigation as crazy as that is, and always trying to improve myself. I think for me, a big part of it was saying yes to opportunities that came along even when they were intimidating and then delivering to the best of my ability on that. And I think certainly for people who end up making a career out of this job, getting involved in the community and building a network along the way, it adds a lot of meaning to your career. I think it’s really important though that you also take care of yourself and have a lot of fun. And I think looking back, I think I somehow managed to do those things all together, but the importance of making sure you’re having a life, living a life, having some laughs and doing things outside of the office is just terrifically important as well.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Yeah, those are just amazing tips. Debrán, can you give us an overview of your career path?

Debrán O’Neil:

Sure. While I haven’t risen to the same ranks as Monica so far, some of our path is very similar. I two summer clerked at Carrington Coleman and another law firm during law school in between my second and third year. And loved Carrington Coleman, loved the people, the work the city, and accepted an offer after law school to start my career here. And like Monica, I’ve never looked back. I was an associate, I made partner and have now taken on the hiring partner role.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Awesome. And what are some of the tips that you might give to folks in terms of how to achieve some of the same success that you have achieved over the years?

Debrán O’Neil:

I would echo what Monica recommended of making sure that your work product is first and foremost, the best that you can put out there that is going to open up so many opportunities internally for you to take on more responsibilities and get more experiences that help you grow as a lawyer and as a professional. But also when you are saying yes to opportunities outside your firm, whether that’s in your local bar or other community commitments that you say yes to, you really need to follow through on them. That’s how you create your reputation. So when you take on those responsibilities, really follow through and do your best work so that you create the reputation for yourself as someone who puts out good work product who believes in themselves and who will follow through on what they say they’ll do.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Why was it important for you to take on such a meaningful role in your firm summer program?

Debrán O’Neil:

Well, the summer program had such a huge impact on my own career trajectory, but it is such a unique opportunity that a lot of professions don’t have. So being able to spend six, nine weeks with a law firm and preview whether it’s a good fit for you and you are a good fit for them, that’s a really unique experience that you have to make the most of. And so to be able to get to shape the experience the summer program for our firm is really important for the next generation in our firm’s trajectory.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Well, we have a bunch of summer associates in the midst of their summer, both at your firm and at many other firms around the country. So I know that they’re excited to hear your tips for making the best use of their time in the summer program. So Monica, why don’t we start with you for the first tip.

Monica Latin:

Thank you so much. So our first tip is remember your goals. When a law student applies for a summer position and gets one and accepts it, there is a mission there and it is ultimately to get an offer, but the goals need to also be carefully followed throughout the summer clerkship. So what should your goals be? Make a good impression, do really good work and build relationships. It’s easy to lose sight of those in whether it’s the grind of assignments or the deluge of social opportunities if you’re at a firm that has a lot of events, but you’ve got to keep your eye on the goal, which is to figure out, as Debrán said, is this a firm that’s a great fit for you and showing that you’re a great fit for the firm so you have the luxury of getting an offer at the end of the summer and the decision of whether to accept it.

Dave Scriven-Young:

So I had a question about that. So I obviously did a summer program and didn’t really think about my goal other than getting an offer. But I think like many firms or I guess many summer associates, maybe it’s your very first professional experience, maybe it’s your second if you did a one L clerkship or something like that, but you don’t really know what a law firm is looking for to make that determination about whether how to give you an offer. Right. So can you ask your mentor or people that you’re working with, hey, what is the firm looking for in order to make that determination to give me an offer? Or is it something that your program talks about on day one or how do you determine, I know a lot in everything in a law firm, it’s kind loosey goosey, right? Well, if you do great work and you’re a good person, then we’ll make you an offer. Does a firm have specific benchmarks or do you just look at the whole person to make that determination? And how as a summer associate, do you kind of ask that question I guess?

Monica Latin:

Yeah, that’s a great question. I think we’ll touch on aspects of that as we go through our goals, but ultimately most firms aren’t going to have benchmarks for the decision At the end of the summer, you’re there for a couple of months as a summer associate and there will be feedback given on your performance. So the feedback will be both your professional skills and the prediction of whether those will translate well into you being an outstanding lawyer and your interpersonal skills and whether those will translate into someone that the firm’s lawyers think they would like to have in their mix. And asking questions is always a good idea. Asking questions about expectations shows an interest in your development. It’s just like an associate or any other job asking questions to be sure you have the best information available to you isn’t something that’s going to be frowned on. And I think it’s something that would be encouraged and would show that the summer associate really is taking this seriously and wants to do a good job.

Dave Scriven-Young:

I think when I started my summer associate position, it definitely was my very first professional experience. So I was learning not only how to be a professional, but also what is this law firm and what the expectations are. So asking questions are really key, I think, and it’s a hard thing to do when you’re a law student, but it’s really I think critical to everyone’s professional development. Move on to your tip number two.

Debrán O’Neil:

Sure. Tip number two is the flip side of the coin. Remember the firm’s goals for the summer associate program, just like you are trying to find a good fit, so is the law firm. And what they’re really looking to do is identify individuals who the firm thinks will be successful. Lawyers has all of the skills and the basics to grow into a successful partner one day and ultimately hopefully be a partner at their firm one day. And so that includes the basic skills of critical thinking and analytical skills that lawyers use and need every single day. But also, does this person seem like a hard worker? We are all in this profession and we know there are some late nights and long weekends, and so do we think this person has that drive that will get them through those long hour days? And then are they a team player? Are they going to participate in the firm and align with the firm’s culture and goals, align with the values that the firm has and continue to grow the culture in the positive direction that the firm wants to go? Our firm has a really strong emphasis on writing skills. And so us personally, that’s something we look at in our candidates and we communicate that very clearly to our summer associates at the outset. And then do you have those intangibles like initiative and leadership and interpersonal skills that professionals in this industry need to have?

Dave Scriven-Young:

And it’s a great point because every firm has their own culture and expectations and things that they emphasize. And so getting to know whatever firm you’re at to figure that out I think is really important. So Monica, let’s turn to you for tip number three.

Monica Latin:

Okay, tip number three is attitude is everything. And this follows along from the goals that we’ve talked about, but law firms are looking for people who are going to be successful in the profession and successful in their environment, showing up to work each day, getting a research assignment or a drafting assignment or some opportunity and just doing it isn’t going to tell much about who you are as a person, who you would be as a colleague, what clients are likely to glean when they interact with you, and whether you’ll be a good ambassador for the firm’s brand in the community. So attitude is the key to differentiating yourself from a person who might have the core analytical skills to do the job. So some of the things that I love to look for when I think about somebody that I’d want to practice law with, the first one is positivity.

Nobody wants to be with somebody who’s a complainer or a griper or a sniper or a prima donna. So positivity is just my number one thing. Those are people I want to be around. Little things like be on time, say yes to opportunities and just show your enthusiasm for the opportunity to be at the firm and the opportunity to learn, the opportunity to spend time with lawyers who are honestly taking valuable time out of their days to spend with you when you’re not there, they’re doing other things. And so when you’re there, you really are taking time away from them. So rewarding that with being the kind of person that they enjoy being around is really important intangible to being a successful summer associate.

Dave Scriven-Young:

One of the other things that I might add is being yourself as much as you can for me, and I’ve been at three firms now about to join a fourth. What I think that I’ve realized over those transitions is when you are interviewing for a law firm or you’re in a summer associate position, you’re kind of interviewing them as much as they’re interviewing you because you’re going to be hopefully practicing at that place for a long time. And so you want to be able to bring your true self to that firm. You don’t want to be, I mean, you’re spending a long time, long hours at a law firm. You want to be able to show who you are. And if the people on the other side of the table aren’t ready to or willing to accept that, then it’s probably not a good fit for you anyway. So if they don’t make you an offer, not the end of the world in my opinion. And so that that’s just kind of one thing that I think it’s truly important for summer associates. I don’t know, Monica, I assume you would agree.

Monica Latin:

Oh my gosh, it’s so true. And I will say to people in the interview process, I interview law students and lateral associates and lateral partners. I talk to lots and lots of people who are thinking about where do they want to be employed or who do they want to work with. And I always say that finding a law firm is finding a life partner. It’s not one size fits all. And sure there are going to be law students who take positions just to pay the bills, to get an offer with a firm that’s going to throw a lot of money at them so that they can pay off the horrendous amounts of student debt that so many of us build up as law students. But if you’re lucky, you’re going to find a law firm in the interview process and over the summer that does both of those things that allows you to do the kind of practice that you want to do and also is a place that you really like to be.

So I totally agree. If over the course of the summer you’re not feeling it, you should listen to that voice. If it’s not a place that you’re vibing with, if the kind of attitude that you bring as your true self just doesn’t fit with the people, then you should do yourself a favor and not take a position there because I’ll say more likely than not a year or two later, you’re going to be looking for another job. And that’s not the end of the world. Happens all the time. But you don’t want to look back and say, wow, I wish I had listened to that little voice inside my head.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Yeah, so true. And Debrán, let me just kind of bring you in as well on this because we’re talking about attitude and I’m just hearkening back to when I was a summer associate, I was really scared. I basically went to a firm, so I was at general and block for my summer associate position. Basically they had one spot in the summer class for my school. So I felt really privileged but also really afraid not to screw it up. And again, my first professional experience but didn’t kind of think about what’s going on on the other side, which is the firm really wants you to succeed, right? They’ve spent, they’re spending all of this time, all of this money to bring you in to craft this great program for you. They’re not looking to weed anybody out. They’re looking, they want everyone to succeed, right?

Debrán O’Neil:

Yes. That’s certainly the approach we take. I mean, you’re making a huge investment and we realize these summer associates are making a huge investment with us. This is their one summer that they get to choose a law firm and test it out with before they graduate. And so it’s mutual. We want this to be successful. And we also, I think, recognize there is a greenness to law students. They aren’t yet fifth year lawyers or even partners. And so there’s a learning curve that we’re all going to invest in and try to help you succeed as you learn what the transition is like from law school into the professional practice.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Yeah, can’t emphasize enough. Just having that abundance mindset coming into the program and to each meeting where not looking at, well, this is an obstacle I need to climb, but that these people, this firm is pulling for me and wants to make me an offer at the end of the summer. Just a mindset and attitude thing that I think everyone can benefit from. So Debrán, move on to tip number four.

Debrán O’Neil:

So tip number four, know how to tackle a project. And this is a really important one, right? Your work product is the foundation of what you’re going to be judged on. And so knowing how to tackle the projects you get is very important. You first need to know what the deliverable is. Go meet with the partner who or the associate who is assigning you the project and talk through what the assignment is. Make sure you understand it from the outset and understand what is being asked from you on your ultimate work product. Is it going to be a motion? Is it going to be a memo, a research presentation? So just get those clear instructions at the outset. And then two, stay engaged. Questions are going to come up as you go, as you work through the issue that you’re analyzing or you work through the case law that you’ve researched, you’re going to think of questions.

And I would say stay engaged and go check in. Ask those questions along the way and ask for direction along the way if you need it. I personally, this is for summer associates and my associates who work with me now is I would much rather course correct during the project than get the end work product and it not be what I was expecting or it not answer the question I needed answered. So stay engaged. Three, ask for the deadline and know what the deadline is. Sometimes as partners, we forget to throw that nugget out there as we’re giving the assignment, but speak up and say, when do you need this by? And then stick to that deadline. Do everything in your power to meet it. And if there’s something that is going to derail you, I would say communicate about it early and often. And then as you get towards the end, editing is key.

I would say you always should print out whatever you’re going to turn in and edit it on a piece of paper. You will always catch little errors that you didn’t catch on your screen. And typos and grammatical errors are going to show a lack of attention to detail and reflect poorly on your written product, even if the analysis and critical thinking was great. So don’t let those little things distract from your brilliance. Last, I would say there’s some finesse in being able to juggle a workload. This is a skill that associates have to learn as well as summer associates. If you have that positive attitude and that enthusiasm that Monica was talking about, you’re going to be so ready to just jump in and say yes to every opportunity that comes your way. And that’s important, but you don’t want to overcommit to where it’s going to jeopardize your ability to meet deadlines and put out good work product. So if you’re unsure on whether you have capacity to take on an additional project or experience, flag that be enthusiastic. Say, I would love to work with you. I’d love to take on that opportunity, but here are the commitments on my plate. And ask the partner or associate for guidance on whether they think you should be able to work this in love.

Monica Latin:

I love that point, Dave. And I would add when you’re asking for clarification upfront, I think as summer associates, we assume the assigning person is this person from on high who knows everything about everything. Sometimes the person giving the assignment hasn’t thought it through either. Sometimes they just know they need some help with this thing. And in the questions at the outset, the summer associate can help refine what the lawyer wants that the lawyer doesn’t even know that they want, and show that good teamwork and initiative. And likewise, along the way, I still remember when I was a summer associate being given a very unusual research project and by coming back and asking questions about some of the things I found, I found avenues that the partner wasn’t aware of. Not to their fault, I was just deep into it. So give credit to your own skills.

When you come back and say, well, what do you think about this? You may change the project entirely because you found something that’s really good or helpful that needs exploration that the person didn’t even know about. So if you mechanically just deliver what was asked, you may not be serving the client’s interest fully because you’re not using your whole brain, you’re not using the benefit of the research that you’re doing. And you could find yourself adding value in a way that I think as we talked before, some associates are nervous and intimidated, but there are many times where a summer associate with the luxury of the ability to roll around in a topic is going to come up with something that nobody had really thought of. So it’s really important to communicate along the way about the project. You can really add value sometimes in ways you might never expect.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Yeah, I love that. Great tips from both of you, Monica. Let’s move on to our fifth tip.

Monica Latin:

So the next tip is make the most of networking. This is getting to know the people at the firm. You mentioned a few minutes ago, Dave, this sort of idea that most of us have never been in a law firm environment. When we come into a summer associate program, many of us don’t even have never even known any lawyers except by doing interviews. And so it’s a pretty intimidating thing to get into a law firm environment, and you don’t want to make a mistake and embarrass yourself, but there is a balance in getting that courage to really get out and get to know the people around you without being annoying. And so figuring out that a lot of that’s authenticity about your true self. But I would just say generally, again, some summer associates come to the office, they do their work, they turn it in, and that’s that. But you really want to take the opportunity to get to know the people around you, ing around you, the people that you’re attending various events with, and be brave enough to build those connections separate and apart from the task at hand.

Dave Scriven-Young:

So Debrán, running this summer program for your firm, and Monica, I know that you’ve been involved over the years and probably have experience with how a summer associates are evaluated. I assumed, and maybe I’m wrong, that it’s not just a hiring team decision, but you’re actually maybe doing surveys with other people who the summer associate might’ve been in contact with or, and just to get a glimpse of what they think about the summer associate before making an offer. And so networking with more people within your firm seems to me would give you more opportunities to just get your name out there to let people know who you are, what you’re about, what your passions are that you’re really interested in joining the firm. I mean, networking just gives you those types of opportunities to get in front of more people who might have an influence in whether or not you’re going to get an offer.

Debrán O’Neil:

Yeah, absolutely. That is so true. There’s a limited amount of time that a summer associate is here, and if you have big meaty projects, you might not get to do work product for as many attorneys at the firm as you would like. But these networking opportunities, these social events is your opportunity to meet the people outside of those who you’re doing work product for and get to know them because the odds of you coming to the firm and only working with or for the people you worked with during your summer associate years, that’s really slim. And so it’s important to know all of the other people in the department that you’re interested in, in the firm at large. And so we absolutely seek feedback on social interactions with our summer associates, not just work product feedback.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Alright, so let’s move on to our sixth tip.

Debrán O’Neil:

So this I would say is act like an associate. That is the job you’re interviewing for. And so figure out what life as an associate is like at the firm. And what I mean by that is you can ask around the existing associates, but when you show up on day one, figure out what the workplace culture is like, what are the expectations on when you should arrive? When I first started as a summer associate, I thought professional workplaces were like 8:00 AM and what I learned is at least in Dallas, the legal culture doesn’t really get rolling until closer to nine and they stay later. And so figuring that out was interesting and a little bit of a learning curve. What is the firm’s approach on open or closed doors? I would say as a summer associate, you should really leave your door open and leave the opportunities to have people pop by and talk to you.

But different firms do things differently. And so if a partner’s door is closed, does that mean leave them alone or can you knock to go in, ask those questions and figure out those things? And then as you’re working with different partners or lawyers throughout your time, figure out what that person likes as far as communication style. Do they prefer emails, phone calls, teams, messages, whatever it is, there is someone that has that intel at the firm and do your homework and figure that out. And then one thing that has kind of changed over the years since Monica and I were summer associates, and probably you as well, Dave, is the ability to work from home the policies that law firms have changed and what is that policy for summer associates figure that out at the outset. I personally would recommend you being in the firm, in the office every day. That’s how you’re going to get opportunities and meet more people, but you should know what the expectations are. And then little things also like dress code and what is the vibe of the firm? Just knowing those things will help your experience go smoother and we’ll help make sure you’re not slipping up on something minor.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Love that. Great tip. And Monica, let’s move on to tip number seven.

Monica Latin:

All right, so the next tip is about opportunities to go on out of the office experiences like client meetings or Courtroom hearings or depositions, and those can be in the office and remote. But by that what I’m saying is you get invited to tag along with a lawyer while they’re engaged in the practice of law and see what that’s all about. Our tip in this regard is don’t treat those experiences like a field trip. They can feel like it. You’re working really hard, you’re buried in research, staring at a computer all day, and you get an opportunity to go somewhere. And I remember looking forward to those like crazy, but you’re not just a guest, you’re not some VIP tag along. If you think of yourself that way, you’re not only missing out on an opportunity, but you run the risk of coming across as a prima donna.

So what do I mean by that? When you get invited to let’s say attend a deposition, learn about the case, this isn’t billable, but ask the person that’s invited you, is there anything you can read about the case or get up to speed on? And even better, is there anything they can do to help the lawyer prepare? Is there any research they need or any files they need organized? It can be grunt work or legal work, it doesn’t matter. But when you show an enthusiasm for the opportunity to experience the practice of law, you can then really add value and sometimes have an opportunity to do something substantive you would’ve never done. I remember when I was clerking at this firm, I ended up getting to draft an outline for the deposition just because I said, gosh, that’s really great. What can I do to help?

And the lawyer said, well, heck, take a stab at the outline. I’m sure my outline was terrible, but I got to do it. And then I got to go and then experience the deposition in a whole different way because I thought about it from the perspective of the practicing lawyer. The flip side is there have been instances over the years where I have seen a summer associate get invited to something and they just say, yes, I’d love to go. And then at the appointed hour they show up. And even to the extent that I remember going to a court hearing with a summer associate who didn’t even bring a notepad, they didn’t even take notes of what was happening. And I don’t know what notes they were probably going to take, but it was just weird. It was like they were just spectators. And so you’ve lost the opportunity to show that you’re part of the team. You want those lawyers to see you as an associate in the firm and forget that you’re a law student. And so there’s no way an associate in the firm would go to a hearing or a deposition or a client meeting without a notepad. And I know it’s an extreme example, but it really drove home for me the difference between going on a field trip and actually getting to embrace the opportunity to see what we really do in our jobs.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Yeah, absolutely. Going to court with a lawyer. When you’re a summer associate, it’s not like having a backstage pass at a Stones concert. You want to show what you have to offer and coming with a notepad, writing down what happens, writing down what kind of intrigues you. So not only you can have a discussion with a lawyer on the way back, but also the lawyer might turn to you and say, Hey, do you remember X, Y, what they said about X, Y, and Z? And if you can turn to the page in your notes and give them that fact, I think that goes a long way to impressing people. So yeah, great tips there, Debrán. Let’s move on to tip number eight.

Debrán O’Neil:

This would be to make the most of your social opportunities, what to do and whatnot to do. And so speaking of backstage passes for the Stones concert, don’t treat these social opportunities like you’re at that concert, you are still a professional and you’re still at a professional event. Do not over imbibe and embarrass yourself. Monica probably has some good war stories she could tell here, but have fun. Let loose people want to see your personality and know that who you are on more personal level, but remember your setting and that’s true for your whole career, quite honestly. So Monica, do you want to tell any fun war stories there?

Monica Latin:

Fortunately, I don’t have very many terrible experiences, but over these many years I’ve seen a few. And most of the time they involve alcohol, but not always. It’s just really important to remember that the social events are part of the interview, which doesn’t mean you should be just sort of so tightly wound or laced up that you aren’t fun to be with. But striking that balance, just like if you were entertaining a client as a lawyer, striking that balance between having fun and also sort of representing yourself well is really important. But I will say over the years, without saying whether they are my firm or another firm, there have been instances of associates really good kids, really good law students, great bright futures and probably went on to have terrific careers, but just lost control at an event. You’re having some fun, the alcohol’s flowing and an instance where somebody ended up sleeping on the lawn of partner’s house or something like that. It’s just the last thing you want to do is throw away your chance at an offer. Though maybe there are firms where that enhances your chance for an offer. But in all seriousness, it is important to strike that balance. And again, back to tip number one, remember your goals.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Yeah, I love that. Really smart. Let’s move on then to tip number nine, back to Monica.

Monica Latin:

All right, so we touched on this at the very beginning, thanks to you Dave. But tip number nine is for emphasis, proactively ask for feedback. So you asked at the beginning about whether summer associates have the ability to ask questions, whether they have the ability to inquire about things. And here it’s so important that summer associates ask for feedback. Why is that? First of all, may not be obvious to summer associates, but lawyers by and large are terrible at giving feedback. They put it off, they get something. If it’s good enough, then they just move on. They’re very busy or maybe it’s not very good and they just deal with it, grab what they can and move on or toss it in the trash. There are lots of things that can happen and a summer associate who just turns in a project is never going to know did they do a good job or were there things they could improve on?

And there are some really great supervising lawyers out there in the world, and hopefully this doesn’t happen to any of our listeners that they turn something in and don’t get good feedback. But if you don’t, this takes courage, by the way, to walk into a partner’s office and say, I was just wondering how I did on that assignment. But if there are things that the summer associate needs to improve on, how are they going to know? And sometimes when there’s constructive feedback, that’s the hardest to give. So it’s the most important that the summer associate go in and find out if they underdelivered. Why? Because you don’t want to not get an offer and not know why, and you want to learn from that. And oftentimes you can underdeliver and still get an offer, but you’re missing this incredible golden opportunity to learn. And we are all learning.

And I still learn about research and writing all the time, but it’s just so important that if the summer associate doesn’t get the feedback or if they do get the feedback that they ask questions, but to learn and to show the law firm that you care about your professional development, there’s no other job like this in a law student’s career. There’s no other job like being a summer associate. People in other professions think we’re crazy and they’re jealous all at the same time. You show up for the summer, you get money, you don’t actually have any long-term obligations, you don’t care about the firm, you get an offer, don’t get an offer. You don’t ever have to come back. In a way it’s the easiest money you’re ever going to earn, and you’re going to have all this fun at a lot of places along the way, but you’re really missing out on an opportunity if you don’t treat that as like the laboratory to continue to build your skillset before you set foot in a law firm as an associate.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Yeah, it takes so much courage to ask, how am I doing? And you don’t know the answer to that question. I think lawyers are taught, don’t ask a question you don’t know an answer to. Well, that’s definitely one that takes courage to ask, especially during that time in a person’s life. So great tip there. And Debrán, we’ve reached tip number 10. So give us that last tip.

Debrán O’Neil:

Here we go. So treat the staff like professional colleagues. As a new lawyer, and even as an older lawyer, you’ll learn very quickly that the staff, the assistants, the paralegals, the office staff are your best friends in your lifelines. They are the people who will help you through the difficult times, have your back when you need them, and they also have a plethora of information that can help you as a young lawyer. And so first and foremost, treat them with professionalism and with kindness and respect for the craft that they have honed and the career that they have built. And then use them as a resource. Ask them questions about the partners you’re working with, the associates you’re working with, the way the law firm runs, where to find certain things and ideas that you may need for getting your work product done. And ultimately, if the staff likes you, it will show and people will know about it. Conversely, if you don’t treat them with kindness and respect, that will be well known as well.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Great tip. And I just remember so well coming into the law firm and just not knowing anything, and the assistant that I was assigned to was just so excellent and just wanted to teach me so much about the firm and the firm culture and just how to do things, how names on a memo should be arranged, something that I hadn’t even thought of. And so yeah, just so critical to get to know your assistant, get to know all of the staff, because hopefully there’ll be people that you’ll be working with for years to come. So we’re at the end of our time together. We’ve gone a little bit over time, which I think even our listeners will appreciate because this has been interesting. I learned a lot and I’m sure our listeners did it well, but just wanted to see if there were any kind of last thoughts or pieces of advice that you wanted to give. So Debrán, why don’t we start with you?

Debrán O’Neil:

Have fun. The summer associate program is just such a unique opportunity and there’s just fun things that you get to go do. You often get to go on social outings that aren’t part of your everyday life, so enjoy it, make the most of it, and just live it up while you’re there.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Alright, and Monica, any last thoughts?

Monica Latin:

Yeah, I totally agreed. As I said before, you’re never going to have another job like this one in your life and sort of summoning up the courage. We will say fake it till you make it. See yourself in that role. See yourself as a lawyer, just go for it.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Excellent. Debrán O’Neil and Monica Latin from Carrington Coleman, thank you so much for being on the show and providing tips for Summer associates, hopefully doing well at their firms as we speak. So thanks so much for being on the show today.

Monica Latin:

Thanks Dave, appreciate it.

Debrán O’Neil:

Thank you.

Dave Scriven-Young:

And now it’s time for a quick tip from the ABA litigation section. So let’s welcome back Darryl Wilson to the show. Darryl is the ABA young lawyers division speaker for the 2023-24 bar year. And that role he serves as the chief policy and legislative officer overseeing the Wilde Assembly. And this is actually Darryl’s last tip for the show. He’s been doing such a great job for the last three and a half years. We’re so sorry to see him go. Darryl, thank you so much for all that you’ve done for the podcast. I’m sure all of our listeners has provided a lot of value for everyone who’s listening to the show. And what do you have for your last tip?

Darryl A. Wilson, Esq.:

Thanks, Dave. I appreciate that introduction and definitely glad to be here for the last tip. And so this one, I just wanted to round out kind of my experience here on the show and circle back to where I began and talking about keys to success for young lawyers. And I think as I’ve grown and matured in the law over the last three and a half years, I think it’s a good way to close out for my final tip. So the first tip that I’ll start with is that as a young lawyer, you always want to be able to take ownership. And what I mean by taking ownership is really that you treat every assignment, every project or every meeting that you’ll ever have during your profession is if it’s one that you orchestrated and one that you created on your own. You want to make sure that you dot every I and cross every T when you’re looking into establishing your projects and your meetings to make sure that you are providing and giving your best effort in whatever the project is that you’re doing.

You also want to take ownership of mistakes. We do know that mistakes sometimes occur and that you don’t intentionally do them. And so the best thing to do that when you’re working with someone and you perform a mistake or you accidentally do something, you want to actually own that mistake. And also talk about ways that you can learn from that mistake and where you can grow to move your career forward. The next thing that you want to do is to be coachable. You want to be able to accept constructive criticism from wherever it may come from to you, whether that be an annual review or just a review that you’re receiving for an assignment that you completed and turned in. You want to leave your attitude or your ego at the door and ensure that you are open to receiving the feedback from those who are there to help you in order to be a great coach.

I think that everyone wants to excel in their career and get to a point where you can be a partner or you can excel in your in-house organization and you want to be able to be a mentor to young lawyers. I would say that in order to be that great coach, you have to want be a great team player and be coachable. Next, you should always remember your ethical obligation as you practice law. Be reminded that there are the model rules that the ABA has established for ethics. You want to ensure that you provide the best and quality representation of your client, but you want to make sure that you do it ethically. I think I tell people that if things just don’t feel right within you morally, whether it be your own personal moral compass or just the morality of it all in the practice of law, that if it doesn’t feel right, you should voice your opinion and let those know that ethically and morally you can’t do something.

Make sure that it is received and that is received well so that you can continue to be who you desire to be within the law. The next thing I would say is that your word is always your bond. When you get assignments, you want to make sure that you advise that you will work to meet the deadlines that are established to you, and that when you meet those deadlines that you actually do turn in the project or do the work on the date that you said you would do it by. And if you foresee that there may be a struggle to get to that date, that you reach out on enough time and ask for an extension to make sure that you provide that best work quality and that best work product. You always want to show up. If you’re going to say you’re going to be somewhere, make sure that you show up and that you’re there and that you bring your best self and that you always deliver in everything that you do within the practice of law.

The last tip that I want to say is that you want to be likable. Definitely find ways to be able to relate to individuals in network settings. You want to be able to be who you are at all times. I’ve learned over in life that, and this is from a fable that I can’t remember the person who said it, but you have two ears and one mouth. And that basically means that you should listen twice as butch as you speak. So when you’re in those network settings, be able to listen to people and hear what their desires are, hear what they like to do or what makes them happy, and be able to relate to them at all avenues and show that you are an individual that listen. I think that you always look at the golden rule, which also says to do unto others as you will have them do unto you.

So as you practice law, make sure that you are doing unto others as you will have them do unto you to make sure that you’re likable. And I think that in closing out and what you want to do and being likable, having your word as your bond and always remembering your ethical obligation to be coachable and to take ownership of everything that you do, that you should also remain and be your authentic self throughout the practice of law. And these have been my tips and I appreciate the time that I’ve had here at Litigation Radio, also known as Lit Radio to provide tips to you, the listeners. Thank you.

Dave Scriven-Young:

Well, Darryl, thanks so much for being on the show. Certainly I remember recording our first trailer together for the show and ever since then you’ve been an example, I think of someone who’s taken ownership, someone who is definitely likable, definitely someone who follows through on obligations, follows through with just preparation. And I think that’s something that, and I’ve learned something every time that you’ve given a tip. I know our listeners truly appreciate it. So just thank you so much again for all of the years, all of the time, all of the effort that you’ve put into this show and into our personal relationships. So just thank you so much for everything.

Darryl A. Wilson, Esq.:

Thank you, I do appreciate that.

Dave Scriven-Young:

So that’s all we have for our show today, and I’d love to hear your thoughts about today’s episode. If you have comments or a question you’d like for me to answer on an upcoming show, you can contact me at [email protected] and connect with me on social. I’m a attorney Dsy on LinkedIn, Instagram X and Facebook. You can also connect with the ABA, Litigation Section on those platforms as well. But as much I’d like to connect with you online, nothing beats meaning you in person at one of our next litigation section events. So please make plans to join us at the 2024 Class Actions National Institute in Nashville, Tennessee, taking place October 24th through the 25th. The National Institute is to Premier Class Action Conference in the United States, and as attended by practitioners on both sides of theBar as team jurist in-house counsel and academics, the world of class actions moves quickly and with several recent court decisions and litigation trends, this year’s conference promises to be more relevant than ever, so you don’t want to miss that program.

To find out more and for registration information, go to ambar.org/class actions. If you like the show, please help spread the word by sharing a link to this episode with our friend or through a post on social and invite others to join the show and community. If you want to leave a review over at Apple Podcasts, it’s incredibly helpful. Even a quick rating at Spotify is super helpful as well. And finally, I want to quickly thanks some folks who make the show possible. Thanks to Michelle Obert, who’s on staff with the litigation section. Thanks. Also goes out to the co-chairs of the Litigation Sections audio contact committee, Haley Maple and Tyler True thank you to the audio professionals from Legal Talk Network. And last but not least, thank you so much for listening. I’ll see you next time.

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