The 2024 Presidential Election: Policy, Party, or Personality

Episode Notes

Transcript

Dr. Casey Burgat:

How do we bridge this gap? I don’t know yet, but it does take a commitment on all of us to pay more attention to our politics, to relate to people in a very human way, and not assume that if they think differently than they’re wrong or dumb or misguided, but really that we all just have our unique experiences and we want those experiences reflected in our leaders. That’s how it’s supposed to work.

Announcer:

Welcome to the award-winning podcast, Lawyer 2 Lawyer with J. Craig Williams, bringing you the latest legal news and observations with the leading experts in the legal profession. You are listening to Legal Talk Network.

J Craig Williams:

Welcome to Lawyer 2 Lawyer on the Legal Talk Network. I’m Craig Williams coming to you from Cape Cod. I occasionally write a legal blog named May It please the court and have three books out titled How To Get Sued, The Sled and my newest book, How Would You Decide? 10 Famous Trials That Changed History. You can find all three on Amazon. In addition, please listen to our new podcast miniseries In Dispute: 10 Famous Trials that Changed History. It’s currently featured here on the Legal Talk Network and on your favorite podcasting app. Please listen and subscribe. Last month, president Biden announced that he would be dropping out of the 2024 presidential race and endorsing Vice President Kamala Harris for the presidential nomination. The momentum in the election shifted creating an entirely new battlefield in the race for the presidency against former President Trump and his vice president candidate JD Vance.

Inflation, the Economy, women’s reproductive rights, immigration education. These are just some of the policy and legal issues that we’ve covered over the years here on Lawyer to Lawyer and we’ll surely be on the minds of voters as the cast their ballot for the president again this November 5th, 2024. So what will we see leading up to the election and what issues will be important to voters today On Lawyer to Lawyer, we will discuss the upcoming presidential election. We will take a look at the candidates policy issues that are important to voters and what we can expect on the election day and beyond. And to help us better understand today’s topic, we’re joined by guest Dr. Casey Burgat. He’s an assistant professor and the director of Legislative Affairs program at George Washington University’s Graduate School of Political Management. He’s also the author of the forthcoming book. We Hold These Truths and he hosts gws Mastering the Room Podcast. Prior to joining GWU, Dr. Burgat was a senior fellow at a DC-based think tank and a staffer on Capitol Hill for the Congressional Research Service. His research focused on issues of congressional capacity and reform. Welcome to the show, Dr. Casey Burgat.

Dr. Casey Burgat:

Glad to be here.

J Craig Williams:

Well, Casey, tell us a little bit about your background and how you got interested in politics.

Dr. Casey Burgat:

Man, we are going to go back then I was always fascinated with history and like a lot of us with the great men and women of history, who if not for them, then the world would’ve been a little different. And as a young, young little guy always wrapped my head around presidents and their role and impact. And then obviously that translates into, okay, the system of government they operated in and changed and founded and then started paying attention to campaigns and speakers now looking for the next one, the next person who is going to be the subject of these type of memoirs for someone down the line. So always just had a fascination with it and started paying attention to it always through a historical lens and DC once I finally got out to the east coast, saw the dome of the Capitol, saw the White House, and just had an energy about me that I’ve been chasing ever since and wanted and knew to be around here to know that this is the place where a lot of things can change with decisions that just simply don’t happen anywhere else, and I’ve stayed ever since.

J Craig Williams:

That’s a long trip from Arizona to dc?

Dr. Casey Burgat:

Yeah, originally from Colorado, born and bred in northern Colorado. And honestly, Arizona was just the quickest way that can get me out of undergrad with all of my credits. And so went there after a short stint in a school in Los Angeles and got out of undergrad knowing that I wanted to make my way out east anyway, and they took all my credits and thank goodness they did.

J Craig Williams:

Well, tell us about your role as the director of the legislative affairs program at George Washington University’s graduate School of Political Management.

Dr. Casey Burgat:

Heart’s a mouthful, huh?

J Craig Williams:

Yeah, it really is.

Dr. Casey Burgat:

Yeah, so I never wanted to be in academia. I was on the hill working for Congress’s Private Think Tank. It is a job that if you would’ve told my 10-year-old self that I would’ve had, then I would’ve signed up for a lifetime contract. It’s just a phenomenal place to work, and I was working with some of the best and brightest and having direct interactions with members of Congress, just something that someone in their twenties should never be allowed to do. And still there was something else missing there. I was teaching on the side in an adjunct capacity. I was finishing up a PhD, but still I never wanted to go into academia or just do outright research knowing that that world can be incredibly insular and incredibly limited. I want to talk to more people than that allowed. And so bounced around to a think tank that focused on issues that I cared about, and that was just what can our politics do to reform itself so that people are less cynical, less mad and more hopeful and see government as a set of institutions that can do good rather than something that just is supposed to make us mad or stop us from doing things that we know are necessary.

And GW came calling. I knew that I wanted to teach. I knew that I wanted to still involve myself in political matters, have a little role as not a consultant, but still dealing with the members and staff that I had grown accustomed to working with. And it kind of allowed the best merging of the two where I can run a master’s degree program of some of the best and brightest minds, young minds committed to making government and politics work a little bit better, design classes that fit the current model because I had just spent a long, long time in school taking classes about politics. I got a PhD in literally American government, but never read a piece of legislation. So I was frustrated with the gap between studying the place and knowing how it works internally. And so GW offered a rare opportunity to use the classroom to bridge that gap that I knew and had been frustrated with existing for too long.

J Craig Williams:

Well, let’s jump into the topic. We’ve got a big switch up, maybe a historical switch up in presidential candidates and people are looking to figure out what’s going on. What do you say,

Dr. Casey Burgat:

Man? Me too. I’m still looking to figure out what’s going on. I mean, even just looking back a month ago, it is a completely different political environment, and it’s just a reminder that while we look at government and politics as this slow moving, never changing set of institutions and simply not the one constant in our politics is change. And the minute you think you’ve got it all figured out, history’s going to slap you upside the head with some reality. And we’ve seen an instance, in fact, a couple instances of that with this singular campaign cycle. So I’m just talking to people about the process, about how this is maybe historical in our lifetime. There is precedence for a lot of this stuff. There’s processes to play out and as unsettling as all of this can be, things are actually happening as they’re supposed to. And that’s a good sign of the institutions holding strong and America’s commitment to it, knowing that we can’t always know how the movie ends before we press play on it.

J Craig Williams:

Well, at first it seemed like we had two old people as candidates for president. Now we have one not so old, and another one that is comparatively old. How do you think that’s going to affect voters?

Dr. Casey Burgat:

I think that there was a lot of frustration. I think that one of the most common gripes I heard from everyone was that in a country as big as ours, is this with Biden and Trump? Is this the best we can do again? And there was just kind of this resignation on the part of Americans, I know I want to be involved, I want to pay attention, I want to be excited about this, but I can’t get myself excited for this. And we saw that play out over not only the 2020 cycle, but all of President Biden’s first term. And then when there was a question and a silver lining of hope for a lot of Democrats out there and a lot of independents for that matter, that maybe he was going to take this opportunity to pass the torch willingly and voluntarily. Obviously that didn’t come to pass and there was a lot of pressures put upon him to ultimately make that decision.

But we’re at a point now where there’s an excitement within the Democratic party and we see that reflected in poll numbers and media attention and fundraising numbers that even just a month ago was simply not there. It was trying to be manufactured and they couldn’t do it. So now we flip the race upside on its head, and we’re going to look back at this moment in a generation or two and say, Hey, just because you win a primary, there are other processes out there to put someone else in power. If the party and the person who won the nomination decides that that’s in the best entrance of not only their own party but the country. And that’s what we have now history in the making.

J Craig Williams:

Well, we have the Republican National Convention already decided they’ve got their candidate. Do you think there’s a chance that the Republicans can make a decision like the Democrats did in the substitute candidate for president? You think that’s even in the cards

Dr. Casey Burgat:

That would require former president and now nominee again Trump to make that decision on his own? I mean, the minute you become the presumptive nominee when those delegates are attached to your name, and then especially after those delegates formalize their decision at their party convention, it’s his choice to make. And man, I’ve never met the guy, but I am pretty confident in the prediction that he’s not going to willingly give up that spot. So is it possible theoretical? Absolutely. In practice, I can’t see it happening. Which leads to the question, and there’s talk about this right now with reporting that he’s frustrated with his own pick of vp, could there be a change in the ticket at the vice presidential level? And there’s other processes for that, but again, that is Trump’s decision to make.

J Craig Williams:

So it’s not the party’s decision any longer.

Dr. Casey Burgat:

No, and it never really was. Right. That’s why we have primaries. We took the power away from parties in an era when they grew frustrated of those proverbial smoke-filled rooms. They gave voters a stay in that through our primary process. And there are different levels of how strong they bind those delegates from each respective states to the ultimate choice they make at their convention. But no, this is always his decision, which was true for Biden and now for Trump and as much pressure as we saw placed on Biden, that’s why it took that several number of weeks for that critical mass to reach him in the White House to ultimately force him to make that decision that obviously he didn’t want to do until the writing was so clearly on the wall.

J Craig Williams:

And how do you think the vice presidential candidate selection has gone? Do you think that that’s had an effect on the campaign?

Dr. Casey Burgat:

A tale of two campaigns and two picks? Right. So I was in Milwaukee when the announcement at the RNC when the announcement came down for that JD Vance was the pick. And my first thought was, man, that is a person you pick if you are confident in the outcome in November that he was looking for someone young and committed to the ideology, committed to the positions more than someone who you choose to win one election, right? We think of vice presidential picks when you’re on a campaign and in the war room deciding who to go after. You choose someone who can bring an audience or a demographic or mostly a state to the table that was not already sitting there. And JD Vance for Donald Trump didn’t do that, right? He’s from Ohio that was going to go red anyway, and he doesn’t, he’s a white guy, a Christian, the same way, the same appeal that Donald Trump makes to that base. That was not a base in Largening Pick, but what it was was a legacy pick that my policies speaking for Donald Trump here will continue if and when JD Vance takes the mantle as the leader of the Republican Party after I’m gone.

J Craig Williams:

And there’s been some change in the presentation on the Republican side, we’ve seen more of the vice president than we have of the former vice president. You think that’s a reaction to the switch on the democratic side?

Dr. Casey Burgat:

Yes. And so that’s where I was going next is that you make that pick at a given time and that campaign, if we take ourselves back, it feels like 19 years ago, but it was only just a couple of weeks. This was on the heels of the assassination attempt. President Biden hadn’t dropped out of the nominations race yet, and the Republicans were incredibly confident in their chances in November at that time, and that pick reflects that type of thinking. But on the democratic side, she went with an energizing pick someone that maybe no one else is as heard of outside of the state of Minnesota, and they’re confident in his message and his peel, and they’re getting him out there as much as possible because he knows one of his best strengths in Tim Waltz is connecting with everyday Americans. Something that Democrats have really struggled to do, particularly in those all important suites states in the Midwest, and he’s a Midwest governor, and that is the different side of the coin. When you have a campaign where you can go after a base energizing play like JD Vance was or someone who could reach out to the voters who were maybe on the fence like Tim Waltz does.

J Craig Williams:

Well, Casey, at this time, we’re going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors. We’ll be right back and welcome back to Lawyer to Lawyer. I’m joined by Dr. Casey Burgat. He’s an assistant professor and the director of the Legislative Affairs program at George Washington University’s graduate School of Political Management. Well, we were talking about vice presidential candidates right before the break, and we have a very different vice presidential candidate on the Democratic side. This man doesn’t own a home, he doesn’t have major investments. He’s not worth billions or millions. He was a school teacher. How do you think that’s going to play into the equation

Dr. Casey Burgat:

That is in every man, if I’ve ever heard one, right? The social studies football coach he served, he is not independently wealthy. We have grown so accustomed with our political leaders being he just speaks and is able to speak from personal experience in a way that just connects with folks. I was on the hill when he was up there too, serving from Minnesota, and he represented a pretty conservative district as a Democrat, which says something about his appeal to, and he’s just known as a good kind dude, and right now that can go a long way that he can speak to a certain every man speak. He can sit down at your kitchen table and relate to how your struggles economically, personally, environmentally, all of them. He just feels them because he lives them. And that’s a very, very different thing than President Trump, even President Biden, Kamala Harris for that matter as VP and JD Vance who was coming to the table, a rich man right after his very, very successful book.

J Craig Williams:

How do you think it’s going to play in terms of the way that the Republicans have approached? It seems as if we’ve almost got a Republican divide in the country. I don’t know if it’s a 50 50 divide or whatever percentage it is, but it seems to be a substantial divide between the perspective of social services and helping out and reducing government. Where does America fit into that and how do we resolve this divide that we have?

Dr. Casey Burgat:

Yeah, there is a divide on almost every single issue we face, and it’s not necessarily policy, right? People are pretty bad at placing themselves on the policy map. You can kind of get them, depending on how you ask a question to fall wherever you want them. They’re going to fall all over the map. But there is a very big partisan divide. Democrats do not agree with Republicans. Republicans do not agree with Democrats, even though they’ve both held both sides of the issues at some point in very recent history. But there is a divide and bridging that gap is incredibly difficult. And our trend is not in our favor right now. Just watch how this campaign plays out and just take a literal stock, get a pen and paper on a speech, and just pay attention to how many of the statements are against the other side rather than talking about exactly what they would do if they were elected.

And I bet the vast majority is going to be about stopping the other side and painting the contrast between what we believe in them. The point is to draw that contrast for voters who are very, very, very busy. We pay attention to politics passively. Craig, you and I probably pay attention way too much. We’re in the top 1%. And sometimes that’s unhelpful in that we see politics through a bubble that other people don’t, that we think in very, very different terms than folks are just saying, yeah, I want to not pay attention to the president. That is a sign of someone doing a good job. And so bridging that gap is incredibly difficult when you are trying to reach them on a every four year cycle and convince them that this is the right policy. And if you elect me, I’m going to do all of these things knowing that it’s a lot more complicated than that.

So I feel for politicians who are trying to appeal to those moderates out there, knowing that the promises we make right now are probably even more likely to fuel cynicism because they’re simply not going to be accomplished the way that they’re promising they will. And then as a voter, you’re going to say, well, hey guy, you promised me this last time and why should I trust you going forward? Just fueling that cynicism we have about politics and government. So it’s a very unsatisfying answer to a question where, how do we bridge this gap? I don’t know yet, but it does take a commitment on all of us to pay more attention to our politics, to relate to people in a very human way, and not assume that if they think differently than they’re wrong or dumb or misguided, but really that we all just have our unique experiences and we want those experiences reflected in our leaders. That’s how it’s supposed to work.

J Craig Williams:

How did we get from a thousand points of light to the kind of hate-filled speeches that we get today?

Dr. Casey Burgat:

Man, you got an hour and a half because then we can get about 1% of the way there. This is a decades long trend, and we’ve always had periods of polarization. Everyone likes to say we’re more divided than we’ve ever been. I get it. But we also fought a civil war, right? 650,000 dead, a huge percentage of the population where literally family against family. So do we want to go back there? No. Are we polarized? Absolutely. But we’ve also seen periods of coming together, particularly after international tragedies or natural disasters. Right now we are very divided and even more concerning for a lot of folks who study this is that our trend is not going in a favorable direction, and that our leaders right now are using that divide as a means, as a mechanism to keep people engaged and mad rather than engaged and excited.

And it’s always about the other side and how dangerous they are. I get it. That’s an effective campaign strategy. We’ve proven that over and over and over. But it also isn’t good for the long-term health of our country, the long-term health of our institutions. And it’s honestly, as other people have studied, it’s a signal of democratic backsliding that when you start thinking so short-term about this election maintaining power for this year, next year, instead of making decisions for 5, 10, 20 years down the line, that’s when we start failing as democracies. And you kind of have to shake the snow globe up again and start over. Which man, I don’t want to go that route.

J Craig Williams:

Well, I’m there and I’ll say it is the boomer, is this the Boomer Generation’s fault?

Dr. Casey Burgat:

I’m not going to blame any generation. We all have our own unique roles to play, but man, I get a lot of frustration. We’re in a cycle right now where just the economic anxiety out there, the working three jobs to not even have a chance to put a down payment on the house, the cost of tuition for which I am a guilty party of GW is one of the most expensive schools on the planet. And all of these things just kind of create a cynicism, a despair in our young people, which historically speaking, the young generations have led those type of mini revolutions to bring us back to center, to shake up that snow globe.

J Craig Williams:

Right? The sixties.

Dr. Casey Burgat:

Exactly. And then the eighties after that, right? The Watergate baby that were reflected in the elections following not only Watergate, but the distrust sowed by Vietnam and others. And these are across parties and across the administrations, but right now, young people, I see good ones, energized, moated and rotated to do good, but I get the frustration across the board with a lot of young people saying, why are we even paying attention to these guys, especially when they’re 80 years old? Who are they talking to? It ain’t me. So why should I even pretend to get involved? And that’s the exact wrong mindset to have.

J Craig Williams:

Well, some ways they’re dramatically affected. I mean, look at Roe v. Wade and the decisions that SCOTUS has made. We have a Supreme Court that’s dramatically shifted the landscape. You think we’re going to see a generational uprising like we have in the past?

Dr. Casey Burgat:

We could. And the indications are from 2022 on after Roe v. Wade was overturned, that that was a defining feature in people’s motivations. Folks who had never paid attention to politics, who never thought possible that we were going to turn back the clock to the seventies, all of a sudden started realizing, if I don’t pay attention to this, someone else is going to start making the decisions for me. And they don’t necessarily have, in fact, I’ll oftentimes they have the exact opposite opinion of mine, and so I better start getting involved. And we saw that with surprising results on referendums and congressional elections, local state elections that were in direct response to that. But for young people, it’s even more than that, that they need to recognize the climate. Right now, we’re making decisions for future generations that only we are going to be affected by, but we’re not in the room making those decisions. The cost of housing, the cost of school, immigration, gun control. These are things that young people feel on a daily basis, and they need to translate those feelings, those frustrations into political action because that’s the only way their views are going to be reflected.

J Craig Williams:

Well, Casey, it’s time for another quick break to hear a word from our sponsors. We will be right back and welcome back to lawyer to lawyer. I’m back with Dr. Casey Burgat. We’ve been discussing the generational shift and the damage that’s been done through changes in scotus, but on one side it’s damage on the other side. They say this is the way that the world should be.

Dr. Casey Burgat:

Yeah, exactly. I mean, they told us the plan. They said this is what they wanted to instill from a, and they knew the mechanisms of power to do it with the Supreme Court decisions that, I mean, go all the way back to denying Mayor Garland, that hearing from Obama’s last term, and this is the thing about politics, is that it is a never ending focus. The minute you take your eye off the ball, you better recognize someone else. And it takes a full on commitment from citizens to recognize that just because it hasn’t happened before doesn’t mean that it won’t happen next, that we can say, yeah, they’re not going to do that. There’s no way they’re going to get that many votes. There’s no way they’re going to get that many justices until they do. And it’s really, really hard to overturn. In fact, there’s going to be a long, long time until the partisan split of this court shifts because of the lifetime appointments and just recognizing how young these folks are and how big of a slant there is on the court, they’re going to make rulings that they believe in. This is what they told us they did, and they were sat on those benches for that reason. And that’s a real good reminder that elections have consequences. We say it all the time and it’s not tangible until it is. And we need to keep that in mind every single election and in between elections for that matter.

J Craig Williams:

So at election day, what do you think we’re going to see? We’re going to see problems at the voting booths, recounts interference, and then the ultimate question, what happens if the Republicans lose? Are we going to have a transfer of power problem, a mini civil war like we saw on January 6th?

Dr. Casey Burgat:

Man, I don’t even thinking about it. History suggests just recent history, and we’ve got a lot of the same actors involved that if it’s close, we’re going to see some problems. And that just pains me to say, I live about six blocks from the Capitol. It was literally barricaded for months and months. My kids ride bikes there and they weren’t allowed to. And trying to explain that that’s because we’re our own people. Shut it down. And that’s really tough knowing that building, knowing the security forces, knowing just what it means as a symbol to our democracy. I don’t want to ever feel that way again. And I fear that we might, and the closeness is going to matter. This is, again, when you start taking things for granted, like the peaceful transfer of power, something we never thought we would have to think about again now is a genuine, genuine voting concern.

And the more close that it gets, the more challenges are going to be levied. And don’t get me wrong, there were challenges across elections for a long time of both parties, but they were civil. They let the process play out, and then ultimately that person accepted the results of the election. And you cannot say now that that is going to be an automatic, right. It’s going to be incredible challenges. And even just undermining the trust and legitimacy of the system is a problem in and of itself, even if the loser does concede. But if they spend months leading up to the election saying, there’s a lot of reports of fraud, or there’s a lot of people are saying, these are the types of things you should hear as people paying attention to this and just know, just trust and know that the system worked as it was supposed to last year, and it’s up to people to make the system actually carry out the outcomes. There was very minimal, historically, small amounts of fraud last election. But that doesn’t mean that actors accept that, even if they know better than that, which I do believe in their heart of hearts that a lot of the Republicans did. So a prediction about danger and chaos, it’s on the table, which is the point. We all have to remain vigilant about that and recognize our place in that. Are you feeding that conversation or are you shutting it down? And please, please, please be the one who shuts it down.

J Craig Williams:

Right. Well, last bit. Any predictions?

Dr. Casey Burgat:

I’m never making a prediction again. There’s no win out there, right? I mean, we always say that we’re so bad at recognizing that an 80% chance of doing something still leaves a 20% chance of the opposite happening. And that’s what we fail to recognize when we see polling and predictions of which we’re going to see ad nauseum between now and election day. But right now, I would rather be the Kamala Harris campaign than the Donald Trump campaign, but at the same time, three weeks ago, I think that I would’ve said the opposite. So all we can expect, the only thing we can know for certain is that surprises are coming, and that’s going to be true for this election, perhaps even more than most.

J Craig Williams:

Right. Well, Casey, it looks like we’ve just about reached the end of our program, so it’s time to let you share your final thoughts and provide your contact information.

Dr. Casey Burgat:

Yeah, I love hearing from folks. I want to reach outside the DC bubble and I, I’ve had a couple ways of doing that most recently is with my substack casey burgett.substack.com, and that is where I post a lot of very, very short videos about just civics types of things, things you should know as an American, but are too afraid to ask anymore. We stopped teaching civics. Craig, did you take civics when you were in school?

J Craig Williams:

School? I did, yes.

Dr. Casey Burgat:

It’s no longer a class. It has been warped up into history and government, but civics is a very, very different thing teaching people how to be active, engaged citizens. That’s what I’m trying to do with those short video explainers. So check those out. And then the thing I’m most excited about right now is I’ve got a book coming out not until February, but it’s available for pre-order right now. And what it does chapter by chapter is break down all of the myths in our American politics, the things we think are true that just simply aren’t. And to me, that’s where we need to start. If we want to bridge that divide that we talked about earlier, Craig, we got to bridge that divide by starting with a shared understanding of the facts. And myths too often get in our way as convenient falsehoods to stop us from making the sort of changes we all know need to be made.

J Craig Williams:

It’s almost like we need to sit down and have coffee with one another

Dr. Casey Burgat:

Always. It never hurts to break bread with each other. We’ve known that for literal centuries.

J Craig Williams:

Right. Well, tell us lastly about your podcast Mastering The Room.

Dr. Casey Burgat:

Yes, another content source Mastering the Room. It’s a GW produced podcast, and there I sit down with a lot of decision makers and those inside the decision making rooms to kind of bring their perspective out about topics of our time, whether it was the Trump trials as those were going on, or the threats of AI and cybersecurity. I even had one of my white whale guests, Richard Schiff, who as Toby Ziegler on the West Wing, to talk about maybe the impact of that West Wing, the idealism that it showed us, and was there a backlash effect to that type of idealism that when we don’t see it reflected in everyday life, we sit out rather than lean in. So it’s a great way to talk to really smart folks who are the best and brightest in their respective fields and bring those short conversations to folks who don’t have the chance to talk to them.

J Craig Williams:

Great. Well, Casey, it’s been a pleasure having you on the show.

Dr. Casey Burgat:

I appreciate it, Craig. Thank you.

J Craig Williams:

Well, here are a few of my thoughts about today’s topic. Certainly, it’s been a seismic shift in the presidential election as we know it in our lifetime. As Dr. Casey Burgat mentioned, there are precedents for it, so it’s not anything new, but it’s changed the momentum in the election, and it’s interesting to see whether that momentum will continue to last or whether the Great divide in our country will again balance the left and the right between a 50 50 balance and cause the kind of problems we had during the last election, whatever the case may be. If you’re listening to this podcast, I hope you vote, and I hope you do everything you can do to get your friends and neighbors and everybody else to get out to vote. Well, that’s it for Craig’s Ran on today’s topic. Let me know what you think, and if you like what you heard today, please rate us on app, a podcast, or your favorite podcasting app. You can also visit us at legaltalknetwork.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter. I’m Craig Williams. Thanks for listening. Please join us next time for another great legal topic. Remember, when you want legal think lawyer to lawyer.

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