Lawyer 2 Lawyer
L.J. Jones, CPA, is founder of Developing Financial. L.J. specializes in providing customized financial planning solutions for...
J. Craig Williams is admitted to practice law in Iowa, California, Massachusetts, and Washington. Before attending law...
On the last episode of our The Life of a Lawyer Start to Finish series, we discussed Lifelong Learning with attorney Kelli Proia. In this episode, we move on to the next rung of the ladder: Money Management.
Host Craig Williams is joined by L.J. Jones, CPA, founder of Developing Financial to discuss money management for lawyers. Craig & L.J. explore common money management problems, and how lawyers can take steps to manage their money inside and outside of the law firm.
Special thanks to our sponsors GoDaddy Domain Broker Service, Embroker, and Infotrack.
J. Craig Williams: Before we start, we’d like to thank our sponsors Embroker, Posh Virtual Receptionists, and GoDaddy Domain Broker Service.
L.J. Jones: Initially, we’re just like, “Let’s try and save money and really try to aim towards the future,” and then when people are more in the middle of their life, it’s like, “How do we juggle all of these things while still enjoying your life?” I think, especially for parents who are very busy, they’re so focused on taking care of everything else that they don’t think to take care of themselves. And so, it’s kind of taking a comprehensive look at everything that people in the middle of their career are at financially and really trying to pick what is the most valuable part of your life and can we put more money towards that to bring you even more joy and satisfaction in your life.
Intro: Welcome to the award-winning podcast, Lawyer 2 Lawyer, with J. Craig Williams, bringing you the latest legal news and observations with the leading experts in the legal profession. You’re listening to Legal Talk Network.
J. Craig Williams: Welcome to Lawyer 2 Lawyer on the Legal Talk Network. I’m Craig Williams coming to you from Southern California. I write a blog named, ‘May It Please The Court’ and have two books out titled, “How To Get Sued’ and ‘The Sled.’ In our ongoing series of Life of a Lawyer, Start to Finish, we’re exploring the experience of becoming and being an attorney from applying to law schools to retirement and everything in between.
On our last episode in this series, we discussed lifelong learning with Kelli Proia. On today’s episode, we explore money management for lawyers. We’ll discuss common money management problems and how lawyers can take steps to manage their money inside and outside of the law firm. To do that, our guest today is L.J. Jones, CPA, founder of Developing Financial. L.J. specializes in providing customized planning solutions for lawyers. His mission is to help young lawyers establish a strong financial foundation early in their career so they can capitalize on future opportunities instead of trying to fix financial mistakes, which is, hint, hint, hint, where I am right now. Welcome to the show, L.J.
L.J. Jones: Hey, great to meet you.
J. Craig Williams: It’s nice to meet you as well. Why don’t you give us a sum of your background about how you got started in financial planning, most of the lawyers are buried in books and don’t even understand numbers.
L.J. Jones: Fair enough. I come from the accounting world. I’m a CPA. I work for one of the big four accounting firms and did not like it much at all. The hours were long and I felt like I was never working with the clients. It was always more of an adversarial relationship. While I was studying for my accounting degree, I took a class in personal finance. I found it really interesting but at the time, I was on the audit track and went into that career. Once I decided I was ready to leave, I was like, “This isn’t for me and I really want to help people.”
I came across personal finance, started to see financial planning as this offshoot of financial advising where it wasn’t so much about the sale, but it was more about working with people throughout their lives to really plan and implement release confident financial decisions and so that they can achieve whatever they want to do, it’s beyond the investments that was really interesting to me.
At that point, I work for a little bit as a financial advisor with a large firm, realized that wasn’t for me. At the time, my wife was in law school and from conversations with her classmates, I noticed that they had a lot of questions about finances. Law school does a great job of teaching lawyers how to be great lawyers, but unfortunately, it doesn’t teach them much about the financial rewards of their career.
And so, I thought, “Well, shoot, nobody’s really working with this market.” Young people are usually disregarded by the financial services industry. And so, I wanted to change that. So, I created a firm. I created a process that was built specifically for young lawyers. And so, now, I work with lawyers of all different types, really trying to really nail down the financial principles early on in their life. Like you said, we don’t run into problems when they’re 50 and 60 hoping to retire and have those unfortunate conversations where either they can’t achieve their dreams of retiring at a certain time or they have to work longer to get to that point.
J. Craig Williams: Well, why did it end up being lawyers? Obviously, your wife was in law school. Was it just one conversation that this triggered for you?
L.J. Jones: Initially it was. I was trying to figure out who I wanted to serve. I knew I wanted to work with young people and it was just very apparent. When one person asked me, I answered them, I helped them. Then more of her classmates would come to me. They knew that I worked in financial services and people were coming to me with questions of student loans. How much do they save? How do they invest? What insurance do they need?
All of these questions and that it was very apparent to me that, wow, this this group of people just doesn’t have the help that they need. I looked around on Google to see who the people were so I could refer my friends to these people and there was nobody really serving this niche. Now I think there’s maybe two other financial planners that work with lawyers and especially young lawyers, but really they’re an underserved part of the population and I was happy to start to work with them.
J. Craig Williams: Well, since you’ve worked for the big four, you understand what it’s like to work for a big law firm and devote all of your time to doing virtually nothing but work. How do you get their attention that you start out with young lawyers who are working a lot of hours?
L.J. Jones: My biggest way is just through awareness. I try and put out stuff as much as I can. I have a blog that I’m always putting stuff out on. I’m on social media, always trying to put things out. Any way that I can promote is how I like to put stuff out there so that you know maybe it is at 2:00 A.M. and you’re like, “Oh shoot. I need to get car insurance. What do I need to look for in my car insurance?” Hopefully, something that I’ve written or something that I’ve produced is out there to help lawyers with that. That’s really how I try to get out there and to help people no matter what time it is, is to put things out on the internet that I think is educational and helpful.
J. Craig Williams: I’ve seen and heard that getting rid of debt is the fastest way to save money. What are your thoughts about that?
L.J. Jones: I think that’s a great way to look at it. With debt, all of your debt has an interest rate and so if you neglect it, it’s just going to keep adding more and more debt to you. If you’re trying to do both, it’s not a bad way to do it, but once you’re fully done with that, at least manageable stuff like car loans, credit cards and stuff, things like mortgages that are much larger is really hard to do that and it wouldn’t neglect saving at the expense of paying off solely that debt. But I think for a lot of debt, it ends up being a detriment to people’s wealth building.
J. Craig Williams: Let’s talk about what happens right after you graduate from law school. Here you are, you’re coming out with substantial debt. My son came out with nearly $100,000 worth of debt and two degrees but still $100,000 worth of debt, earned more money than he’s ever thought about earning in his lifetime coming out of law school, working for a larger law firm, married, kids, debt, car, new suits, new apartment. How in God’s name can you manage all of that? What do you tell them? What are they supposed to do?
L.J. Jones: Those are all great points. I think your son was one of the lucky people. I often see lawyers with $150,000 to $200,000 of student debt.
J. Craig Williams: That was some time ago, I hate to admit it.
L.J. Jones: It is an overwhelming amount of money and then like you said, they get out of law school, they start making more money than they ever could imagine. Likely their peers that they met in undergraduate have been in the workforce for three years. They’re already buying houses. They’re buying cars. They’re ahead of where graduating lawyers are. And so, there’s this real desire to catch up to them.
The first thing I do is we assess everything that people are at. We’ll look around and say, “Okay, how much debt do you have and how much are you making? Where do you want to live?” All of these kind of basic necessities. Then we also start to plot out, okay, what is it that you want your life to look like? What are your goals in the next 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? We do this both professionally and personally.
Some people really want to travel a lot. Other people want to own a home. Some people want to retire early, which is funny when you meet someone who hasn’t even started, or just started working already thinking about retirement, but for a lot of people, that’s a real goal. When we evaluate where they’re at and where they want to go, then we start to say, “Okay, what’s the plan of action for now?”
For a lot of lawyers, it’s let’s identify what’s the most effective way to pay off for student loans and it’s also implementing what I like to call a spending plan, which breaks down every lawyer’s spending habits into four buckets and then we look, analyze each of those buckets and say, “This is how much money needs to go to taxes. This is how much money needs to go to savings. This is how much money needs to go to your needs, and this is how much money goes to your wants.” Once we’ve identified that, then we can really progress forward and start to implement and monitor this as people progress through their career.
J. Craig Williams: Have you talked to lawyers about building a book of business so that when they get to be partner level, they can step into that role?
L.J. Jones: Absolutely. I kind of mentioned the four buckets that I have. One of those buckets is needs. One of my favorite line items on that is career development. I’m always urging lawyers to put money towards career development, whatever that might be. That might be joining associations. That might be finding clubs that you can go interact with people, that may be a source of business for you. That may be going to networking events or conferences, whatever that might be. I really think that investing in yourself beyond just the investment you put in yourself in law school will only accelerate your career later on.
J. Craig Williams: Excellent. Well, you cover law students and lawyers, young lawyers as well up to general you said I think in your in your profiles that you’re about 45 years of age. What different advice do you give somebody mid-career than you do in the beginning of their career?
L.J. Jones: People early on in their career, it’s all about establishing that standard of living. What standard of living can you be happy with while also putting money towards all sorts of achievements and ambitions that you have? Later on in life when people are mid-career, they probably have a good idea of what they want their career to look like for the next 5 to 10 years, but they also have a lot more financial commitments.
Often, these lawyers are married, they have kids, they might have a mortgage, a car, maybe even a second mortgage. And so, there’s all of these other financial constraints on these people. And so, initially, we’re just like, “Let’s try and save money and really try to aim towards the future,” and then when people are more in the middle of their life, it’s like, “How do we juggle all of these things while still enjoying your life?”
I think, especially for parents who are very busy, they’re so focused on taking care of everything else that they don’t think to take care of themselves. And so, it’s taking a comprehensive look at everything that people in the middle of their career are at financially and really trying to pick what is the most valuable part of your life and can we put more money towards that to bring you even more joy and satisfaction in your life?
J. Craig Williams: That’s a great answer. Well, L.J., at this time, we’re going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsors. We’ll be right back.
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J. Craig Williams: Welcome back to Lawyer 2 Lawyer on the Legal Talk Network. I’m joined by L.J. Jones. He’s the founder of Developing Financial. We were talking right before the break about some age groups. What do you tell somebody as they near retirement age and I will make this observation, I’m kind of there myself, and one of the things that I’ve noticed is that I’m starting to lose peers. They’re dying off, I hate to say, last year and during COVID, I’ve lost too many to count. Is it spend it all, enjoy yourself or save up for retirement or what’s your advice to older attorneys?
L.J. Jones: To older attorneys, I think the biggest thing is to get clear on what life looks like after work. For some lawyers, work is going to be a part of their lives. I know quite a few people, my grandpa included, he’s in his 80s. He’s a lawyer and he still works. I don’t think he can be one of those people who can sit on a beach for the rest of his life.
I think it’s really important for people to really sit down, talk with their spouse if they have it, talk with friends and really get clear on what is it about the rest of your life that you want to accomplish. For some people, that’s travel. For some people, it’s spending meaningful time with their friends and family. Other people are saying, “My life is really great, I like where it is, I would like to leave a lot to my kids or create a legacy through other charitable giving or institutions that they want to donate to.” And so, everyone has this unique idea of what retirement is. There’s not a cookie cutter way of looking at it, but it’s impossible to really decide what to do next if you don’t know where you want to go.
J. Craig Williams: True enough. Well, you’ve developed a process for young lawyers called the Developing Financial process. Can you tell us about that?
L.J. Jones: My process is built specifically for the lawyers. Lawyers are usually high-income earners. They’re usually just now starting to experience the wealth of their careers and they’re really trying to look at what do I do with this money. I built this process to basically analyze where somebody is and decide how do we protect it, whether that’s through savings or insurance, how do we invest it so that we can hopefully grow and reach future goals, and how do we plan for it. There’s things like career planning, planning for partnership or maybe planning for other career moves, maybe to go to a public or nonprofit organization, or maybe to lateral into an in-house position. Whatever that might be, we want to put a plan in place so we can look forward to the future, protect what we’ve earned today, and really achieve everything that people want to achieve.
J. Craig Williams: When you talk with young people just out of law school, young lawyers about investing, do you get any pushback or what’s their thought? “I’ve got all this money in my pocket. I want to spend it and have a good time. I studied for 19 years. I’m tired of this.” What do you hear?
L.J. Jones: I think there are some people who are apprehensive about investing. I think currently, after the investing mania that’s taken place the last few years, people are really excited about investing and they want to learn more about it. I think coming out of maybe the 2008 financial crisis, maybe people were a little bit more apprehensive, but currently talking to young people, they’re excited and they do know that by investing, you have the opportunity to grow your money and grow your wealth.
And so, I think people are looking for how to do that, but what we were talking about earlier in our conversation, lawyers are very busy and they don’t have time to pour over investment strategies, figure out what’s ideal for them, how to be putting in their trades every time they get paid, when to invest, all of these questions that people might have. And so, a lot of people are also very excited to just have somebody who does have a strategy planned out for them and that can implement it on their behalf.
J. Craig Williams: Let’s talk about what other people make up a financial team. In my instance, I’ve used our law firm’s bookkeeper probably for the last 25 or 30 years to keep that out of my hair like you say lawyers don’t have the time for that kind of thing. I also use a financial planner as my investor because also like you just said, I don’t have the time and haven’t had the time to give that the thought that it deserves and the attention that it needs. Who should you build on your team? CPA to do your taxes, financial advisor, bookkeeper, what do you recommend?
L.J. Jones: I think for insurance, it’s always great to have a few insurance agents. I would never just stick with one. Always have a few because you want to get as many ideas as you can. Insurance is important especially for lawyers who do have a lot of income and will build a large net worth to have adequate protection. Like you said, I think a CPA is someone who can do your taxes, especially as you progress in your career and maybe become partner or go in-house where you have certain kinds of stock-based compensation. There’s a lot of intricacies that you want to take advantage of.
Another one that a lot of people don’t think especially young lawyers is an estate planning attorney. Even young people especially when you start to get married or you’re thinking about having kids, need to have an estate plan in place. Then a financial planner, I think obviously it’s a little self-serving but I absolutely think that it’s important to have somebody who can take the 10,000-foot view of your whole life and really see how all of these different people work together to really give you the best possible outcomes.
J. Craig Williams: The one thing I’m just going to add in here is to make sure that your spouse and your partners and people that you depend on have your passwords and your usernames to various things. I recently had a friend who is only in his 40s, who quite unexpectedly died and no one could access his computers because he had them all passworded and he didn’t write them down anywhere.
L.J. Jones: That’s a great point. I think estate planning attorneys these days are getting much better at that but that’s a great point.
J. Craig Williams: The same with your social media. You need to be able to figure out what’s going to happen with your social media in your estate plan so that that can be dealt with. How do you then make sure that you review this process? Meaning, you’ve reached middle age, you’re maybe partner, maybe not, and then you reach an older age where you’re either of counselor or on your own or potentially a partner in a bigger law firm. Life changes. How do you adjust your financial plan and the life you just described with your insurance and your estate plan as it needs to be adjusted?
L.J. Jones: I think lawyers fall into three categories. There’s the asset accumulators. These are people who are building throughout their career trying to build their net worth. Then they become the pre-retirees, and these are people about five years out like starting to think about what retirement will look like. Then there’s the retirees. I think each of these two transitions before you become a retiree. This is the time to really take it seriously and do a full re-evaluation of your financial plan, because things are going to change.
I think especially things like estate planning, when people do get to retirement age, they’re not so much worried about their kids. Usually, their kids have graduated, they’re starting to live their own lives and so maybe things like life insurance that you had to protect your family when they were growing up may not be as important. But now, you might be thinking of, “Okay, how do I use insurance to protect my wealth for not only the rest of my life, but maybe for transfer to the next generation.”
On top of that, you also have to worry about investing. How am I investing today to make sure that I have enough money to get through my whole life and you’re not going from this asset accumulation stage, where you’re saving a lot of money to now you’re not really saving any money. You might have some social security and maybe there’s some other money coming through through other means, but at that point, you’re really starting to draw out of your investments and make sure that that lasts you as long. Managing your spending or at least know what a comfortable spending amount is really helps with the investing part.
J. Craig Williams: That’s great. Well, L.J., these are wonderful things to talk about and I’ve got a few more in my mind. We need to take a quick break to hear another word from one of our sponsors. We’ll be right back.
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Welcome back to Lawyer 2 Lawyer on the Legal Talk Network. I’m joined by L.J. Jones, founder of Developing Financial. We’ve been talking briefly about insurance and I’m curious what your thoughts are about insurance from the standpoint of long-term disability insurance, life insurance, health insurance, vision insurance. Then for some of the older attorneys, what the changeover is into Medicare, what that means.
L.J. Jones: Absolutely. I think long-term disability is an often overlooked part of lawyer’s tool bag of insurance and lawyers work really hard to get to the point where they can start earning a lawyer salary. Disability insurance helps protect that earning potential. There’s a social security study that says the average 20-year-old, I think it’s 20-25-year-old through the age of 65, there’s a 25% chance that they will have a disability that extends beyond a year.
Disability is more common than people think and it’s not usually what people think disability is, a musculoskeletal injury where they can’t move something or maybe a debilitating mental impairment. But sometimes, it’s just sickness that might incapacitate you for a while. This can really damage not only your earning potential, but your future earning potential. And so, disability insurance is a great way to ensure that you have it. It’s not always the most inexpensive type of insurance, but in my opinion, it’s well worth it to protect that future earning potential that lawyers have.
Mentioned a few others, especially like vision, health insurance, things like that. For young lawyers, what we want is we want coverage from catastrophic costs, and so that depends and that will change from when people are young to when they’re older. Obviously, with older people, it’s more about maintaining your care and things like that and going on to the point of Medicare, when you’re drawing down from your investment returns you want to be sure that you understand what can I pay for medical costs throughout the rest of my life without wrecking my retirement plan going forward.
Whereas young people, we’re looking for ways to save money. Sometimes, the thing that I like to talk to young lawyers about, especially those who are healthy is the HAS. The HSA with high deductible health plans that a lot of firms offer is a really valuable tool. It’s not forever young lawyer, but the HSA is the only account in the United States that’s triple tax advantaged, meaning you put money in and it’s not taxed. You invest it and it grows and it doesn’t get taxed while it’s growing. Then when you would draw in the future to pay for medical expenses, it’s also not taxed if used for qualified medical expenses. And so, I think that this is a really valuable tool that often. I see lawyers, not taking advantage of.
J. Craig Williams: You’re talking about a health savings account?
L.J. Jones: Yes, the HSA
J. Craig Williams: You can set that up through your employer most frequently and if you’re a solo, how do you handle it?
L.J. Jones: Solo, what’s important is all you need is a high deductible health plan. There’s lots of different plans available, whether through an insurance provider or maybe through the marketplace that your state has set up. You can find these plans that are usually marked as something that’s HSA eligible. If that’s something that you’re interested in, you can find those domains if you’re a solo practitioner.
J. Craig Williams: Well, your clientele covers big law firms, small, mid-sized firms, in-house counsel and government. Tell us about the differences in the way that those particular firms or people involved in those organizations invest and handle their finances.
L.J. Jones: There’s always different personalities that you meet even within one of those silos. I think for biglaw people, they’re very driven people, they’re very ambitious, and they have these really big goals. That’s what draws them to the high salary even though they do work the long hours. And so, sometimes, I think they’re the ones who are more looking for early retirement or looking for a way to get back some of that time that maybe they’re losing early on in their life, but they’re earning enough to maybe get more of it later on in life.
I think that’s a big thing with biglaw people. The mid-size folks, they’re kind of that in between, where yes, they’re earning a very high salary and they’re looking to get to those life points, but they’re also very satisfied with where they are working. They don’t mind the 40 to maybe 50 or 60-hour work weeks, because they do kind of have more of a work-life balance. And so, it’s about achieving that work-life balance and really making sure the life component of it really makes up for the work component.
When I talk to government people or people in nonprofits, they’re usually very mission-driven and I love that about those people. They usually have causes that they’re really passionate about and things that make them really happy. But at the same time, typically, they’re not going to earn as much as the people in firms. And so, there’s a lot of cash flow management there and saying like, “Okay, how do we still take care of your student loans, take care of buying a house?” Still living a life that’s very full and everything that you want to achieve, but knowing that you’re having this trade-off of the higher earning potential.
In-house counsel is another really interesting one because they have some things like I’ve mentioned earlier of stock compensation and there’s a lot of interesting intricacies there of how does that play into their total retirement plan and also their earning potential as workers.
J. Craig Williams: You have some lawyers that are near retirement, who unfortunately, may not have made some great financial decisions or have spent a lot of their money and had a great time traveling. But now, they’re looking at either continuing to work or modifying their future lifestyles because their financial situations. How do you save those people?
L.J. Jones: It’s unfortunately one of the worst conversations we have in our industry is to tell somebody that whatever you thought you were doing unfortunately isn’t going to be enough for you to achieve the life that you thought you were going to live when you got to this point. It’s something that made me want to work with young lawyers because I had seen those conversations and I didn’t like it, and I thought, “Man, if we just worked with these people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, then we wouldn’t be fixing these problems later in life.”
When people come with these problems, unfortunately there’s often very little that we can do to get you to where you thought you were going to be. If you needed two to three million dollars more to retire with that life you wanted, it’s really hard to do that in five years unless you get lucky with the lottery or something. And so, it’s really about level setting with them and saying, “This is where you are. Now, let’s talk about what we can do to make this money go as far as we can.” Do we need to work more? Is it important to work more? Or is it something that can we maybe find a standard of living with the amount of money that we have that can give you a comfortable life of living that you’ll still be happy with, and really working with that. I’ve worked with young lawyers specifically so that we avoid these kind of situations.
J. Craig Williams: Well, I’d like to get your wrap up and give us your final thoughts as we’re coming close to the end of the show here. But I’m curious about the website that you have and it says, maybe this is the last question to sum up with. You say that you believe that everyone should live their dream life without worrying about their finances. How do you do that?
L.J. Jones: I think the biggest thing is I help educate people. I think when people are educated about their finances, they’re so much more confident in what they’re doing. When people understand an investment process, they feel confident knowing sometimes the market does go up and down, and that’s okay because I have a plan that’s not trying to beat the market today, but it’s trying to get me to achieve my retirement goals later on in life, whatever that might be. It’s the same with insurance, with spending, with taxes, whatever it is. By educating, you really empower people to be more confident in their decision making. I think that that’s one of the big things.
Then two, I think it’s also having people identify what is enough. I think sometimes people get in this hamster wheel of always trying to get more and more and more and they’re never really satisfied because they don’t know exactly what it is that makes them happy. And so, when people identify what their dream life is, it’s much easier to then target and plan to go achieved that.
J. Craig Williams: L.J., it’s great advice all the way around. If our listeners want to reach out to you, how should they get ahold of you?
L.J. Jones: Best way to get ahold of me is through my website. My website is developingfinancial.com. I can also be found on LinkedIn and Twitter and if you want my email address, it’s [email protected] Please reach out to me. I’d love to talk with anyone that is interested.
J. Craig Williams: Great. Well, as we wrap up, I’d like to thank our guest, L.J. Jones, for joining us today. It’s been a pleasure having you on the show.
L.J. Jones: Thank you. I really enjoyed this.
J. Craig Williams: Well, here are a few of my thoughts about today’s topic. L.J. is exactly right. I think one of the things we didn’t talk about was how much money to save. I’ve seen estimates anywhere from 10 to 25% of your salary or whatever it is your earnings are, but I would suggest that you save as much as possible and diversify your portfolio as much as possible so it’s not all in one particular area. Buy some real estate. Buy some stocks, bonds and as many industries as you can. Listen to your financial advisor. Make some solid investments, but take some time to get some life balance and enjoy yourself.
That’s it for Craig’s rant on today’s topic. Let me know what you think. Send us an email. If you like what you heard today, please rate us on Apple Podcast or your favorite podcasting app. You can also visit us at legaltalknetwork.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter. I’m Craig Williams. Thanks for listening. Please join us next time for another great legal topic. Remember, when you want legal, think Lawyer 2 Lawyer.
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|Published:||October 28, 2022|
|Podcast:||Lawyer 2 Lawyer|
|Category:||Career , Practice Management|
Lawyer 2 Lawyer
Lawyer 2 Lawyer is a legal affairs podcast covering contemporary and relevant issues in the news with a legal perspective.