The CIA and the Life of a Covert Warrior

Episode Notes

Transcript

J. Craig Williams:   Before we begin today’s Show. We want to thank our sponsor Posh Virtual Receptionists.

[Music]

Ric Prado:  We all benefit from 20/20 hindsight, but think about it, if we would have been allowed in 1996 to render the Bin Laden, even temporarily, even if after a year we had to return him to Saudi Arabia — or anywhere else, you know, you attack on the Cole probably would not have happened. The bombing of our two embassies in Africa simultaneously would not have happened. We lost thousands of lives there and even 9/11 arguably wouldn’t happen.

Intro:  Welcome to the award-winning podcast Lawyer 2 Lawyer with J. Craig Williams, bringing you the latest legal news and observations with the leading experts in the legal profession. You’re listening to Legal Talk Network.

J. Craig Williams:  Welcome to Lawyer 2 Lawyer on the Legal Talk Network. I’m Craig Williams coming to you from Southern California. I write a blog named ‘May It Please the Court’ and have two books out titled ‘How to Get Sued’ and ‘The Sled’. While the Central Intelligence Agency better known as the CIA is the principal foreign intelligence and counterintelligence agency of the United States government. 

The CIA’s primary job is collecting and analyzing foreign intelligence and conducting covert action and US policy makers including the President of the United States make those policy decisions based on the information provided by the CIA. Well, today, we’re having a very special episode of Lawyer 2 Lawyer. We are going to speak with a highly decorated hero and CIA Shadow Warrior, who spent years fighting to protect the nation and a home that welcomed him as a child of communist repression. Our guest today is Enrique Ric Prado, he is the author of a book just released this last month, ‘BLACK OPS: The Life of a CIA Shadow Warrior’ from St. Martin’s Press. 

Ric spent 24 years in the CIA with a career spanning both the Cold War and the age of terrorism. Mr. Prado received the Cia Distinguished Career Intelligence Metal. That’s the highest award given upon retirement and the George Bush Award for Excellence in Counterterrorism among other things. He is a paramilitary, counterterrorism and special clandestine operations specialist. He served as an operations officer in six overseas posts and upon leaving public service, Ric worked as an executive at a private military contractor where he built a specialized operations team. He’s currently the co-owner of Camp X training where he continues his service training and supporting the spec ops community teaching advanced special operations and techniques among other essential skills. Welcome to the show, Ric.

Ric Prado:  Thank you for having me, Craig.

J. Craig Williams:  Ric, I have to say it is a tremendous honor to have you on the show. I don’t think we’ve had in the 15 years we’ve been doing this had anyone quite as colorful, I would say. You’ve lived quite a life; can you give us a little bit about your backstory about how you became a CIA operative?

Ric Prado:  Well, I actually went into pararescue — Air Force Pararescue in 1971, with the intentions of going to Vietnam. I’m Cuban-born, I came to this country in 1962 by myself to an orphanage in Pueblo, Colorado and having witnessed what had happened to my first country and the atrocities committed and the confiscations and the clothing was charged(ph) and everything else and then coming to a place like the United States even a 10-year-old, I turned 11 in the orphanage. Even an 11-year-old can see that this was a very, very different kind of environment. So, as I grew up — at senior high school, I grew conscious, I felt that I really needed to pay back this wonderful country for what they did for my family and other colleagues and 50 years later, I’m doing pretty much the same thing in different incarnations

J. Craig Williams:  Great, and I’ve read through parts of your book, especially the life you lived as a child in Cuba. There were some specific things that happened to you with your abuela and your abuelo that had some big effects on your decision to become into the military.

Ric Prado:  Yes. I mean, nobody in my family ever wore a uniform. So that was very alien to me. My grandma and my maternal grandfather; was a very, very cool guy, very stoic. And the during the revolution there was a couple of firefights in my town which I witnessed and people getting shot and everything else. And then what happened was, when they were going to take over the town for real, one of the guys in the in the guerilla band was — one of the team leaders was a cousin of my dad. So, he snuck into our house, knocked on the back door, 2 o’clock, 3 o’clock in the morning to talk to my dad and I woke up. My mom was up and he came in to tell us, “Look, we’re taking the town in two days you, nor your wife can leave because counterintelligence-wise, they would perhaps come to the conclusion that you’re leaving for a reason, but we will allow you to take your son out with some other family member.”  

(00:05:12)

This was like I said, 2 or 3 o’clock in the morning and one of the highlights of that was he had a Thompson submachine gun and he put it on my lap and of course, Thomson weighs like 11 pounds or 12 pounds. So that began the love with those kinds of toys. So, I moved to Santa Clara, which was the capital at the of the state in — the rebels came in, took over the town and now my grandfather was bringing me back and I think the highlight of that one which again, part of my forging process, there was a very tall bridge and I check with my dad before he passed and it was a good 75 feet off the ground if not more and fast water and rocks. What the rebels had done, they had taken all the planks out of the bridge, so all that was left was the railings and these I would say 4 by 4 or it looks smaller, beams on the side and my grandfather looks at me he goes “we have to cross this”. And I go okay, he goes, “Are you afraid” and of course I said, “no” but that was not the truth. 

So, he grabbed me by the wrist, one — you know, my left hand and my right hand he had by the wrist and we literally side-stepped across the river holding on to the railing and him holding on to my arm. That was quite an experience, that’s tattooed in my brain looking down at the river and seeing the jagged rocks in the water. So, that that’s how it started.

J. Craig Williams:  And the effect of that communist regime taking over your town, taking over your father’s coffee business, your car and all your possessions, that had an effect, didn’t it? 

Ric Prado:  Oh, without a doubt. I mean, the effect of the Cuban Revolution, of the Castro Revolution was almost instant. My dad owned a small coffee roasting company; he employed 10 people so he wasn’t exactly a capitalist and they confiscated that within six months. Immediately, I had to wear a uniform to go to school and do this little flag thing, and it was very militaristic from the very beginning. Fast forward, just a few months later after they confiscated my dad’s business, then Bay of Pigs happened because I was in Cuba for the Bay of Pigs attack. And my father decided, “Well, if this doesn’t work, we got to get out of here, I’m not going to have my son growing under this kind of communist ruling.”  So, one of our trips to Havana to start the process of trying to leave, they had just had some summary trials and there were literally people hanging guys hanging from trees by the neck with signs on them that said “counter-revolutionary.” And my mom desperately tried to jump in the backseat to block my eyes, but it was too late. That one’s tattooed in there too. So, I saw at a very, very young age, I was probably nine years old when this happened in Cuba because we did a whole year in Havana trying to get out. I knew that I was leaving something evil and then when I got to the United States, I found the opposite.

J. Craig Williams:  One, in your choice was either to come to the United States or be sent to the Soviet Union, was that right?

Ric Prado:  Yeah, you read the book. My uncle, step-uncle, I guess you’d call him. He was a professor in the school that I was at Colegio Martin in Santa Clara. He got wind that there was a list of kids that they were recommending for going to Russian study and my name was on the on the list so that was one of the other catalysts for getting my data — my mom and dad could not get out at first. So, they actually sent me to the United States by myself and you know, that act of courage and conviction on the part of my father to put his only child going to a country that he has never been to, may never be able to visit, may never see his son again and the only reason he did that was he did not want me to live under communism. 

So that’s another big lesson for me when I look back — on courage and determination, conviction and commitment was that decision by my father, because to tell you the truth, when my oldest son turned 10, I looked at my wife and I said, “Do you think we could do this?” She said “Absolutely not.”

J. Craig Williams:  That takes a huge amount of strength and you ended up spending two years in an orphanage in Pueblo, adapting and waiting until your parents were able to get here, it’s an amazing story. Looking back now, 50 years, you’ve gone through field work, you’ve gone through the George Washington University to get your degree. You’ve gone through the farm and learning tradecraft. How does this background that you have sit into the way that the CIA recruits Operations Officers get into the system?

Ric Prado:  Well, like most of my career, it was never planned. 

(00:10:00)

I believe that God puts in front of us a path that we’re supposed to take and if we have the courage to pay the price of admission, we will have a good life because that’s what we were intended to do. In this particular case, out of pararescue like I said, I joined pararescue in 1971 and that’s a very elite unit in the Air Force. And my goal was to go to Vietnam, I had developed this Debt of Honor that I thought that I need to pay this country back and that was the only way I could think of was for joining the military and trying to go to Vietnam. As destiny would have it, by the time that I got my beret in very late 72, early 73, Vietnam was pretty much over. 

So, after two years between training and one-year, active duty, I’m went into the reserves and then I applied twice for the agency; first in 74 and they said, “Look, we’re firing, not hiring,” and then I did it again in 1980 and this time, they brought me in on contract because they needed paramedics to train with their special operations guys that had my kind of background. And so, I started working contract with them while I was still riding(ph) rescue in Metro, Miami — so, Metro-Dade County back then. Come early 1981, the Sandinistas phenomenon of being a communist puppet of Cuba and Soviet Union, Raegan came in and decided that we needed to stop that because they were fomenting insurgencies in El Salvador and Guatemala and in Bolivia, you name it. So, they called me, they said, “Look, we have a work, we have worked for you. We don’t have a native Spanish speaking paramilitary officer that can pass off for a non-gringo and that’s how I backdoor the agency

J. Craig Williams:  And you practically went right from walking in the front door of the agency to Honduras and Nicaragua.

Ric Prado:  I had zero training, they gave me a couple of days’ worth of briefings about what was going on in Nicaragua, the atmospherics of the Honduran support. They gave me some alias documentation and put me on a plane

J. Craig Williams:  And you became Alex.

Ric Prado:  I became Alex, that’s correct.

J. Craig Williams:  Well, let’s take a look at that big picture. I mean you — let’s admittedly kind of point out to our listeners what you were doing there. You were the point man, meeting with the various contras(ph) groups, arming them and providing paramilitary training to have them fight back against the Sandinistas.

Ric Prado:  Yeah, I mean for the first 14 months, I was there for a little over three years and I literally slept in a jungle hammock Monday through Friday for most of that time that I was there, but for the first 14 months, I was the only American allowed to go to the camps because we were still hiding the American hand. Once that became more of a public knowledge, 14 or so months later, then we started bringing in some additional personnel to the camps. Only two actually at first, one — two former Special Forces Green Beret contractors.

J. Craig Williams:  I want to get into the legal questions that flow from that kind of involvement and your other involvement — as you described later in the book. But there’s one thing that I think our listeners really deserve to hear the story about and that is you facing off against 600 angry men who were about ready to take out your main contact. 

Ric Prado:  Yeah. Steadman Fagoth was the leader of the Miskito Indians. The Miskito Indians are Native Americans mixed with black slaves. They’re native to the East Coast of Nicaragua and partially Honduras. I had trained every single one of these guys, these guys knew me, I patrol with them, I showed them how to fire everything from RPG-7s to set the headspace and timing on a 50 cal. 

And so, I had equities with them and so what happened was they thought because the communist, the Sandinistas had a very good — like old communist, they had a very good disinformation machine and they were trying to undermine Steadman Fagoth because he was unifying all the Miskito into a very viable fighting force.  They were arguably my favorite group out there. So, through people that had infiltrated, they fermented this problem that Steadman was stealing from them and that’s why they were not getting resupply. Well, they didn’t know that we had political problems back in the States that had slowed down our cooperation. So, I found out when I got back to my office, that Steadman was going to Puerto Lempira and then to Rus Rus which was the camp that we were going to be at. 

They told me that the guy that we had there on the ground left because there was a lot of angry Native Americans with bandoliers saying that they were going to lynch Steadman Fagoth when he got in. So, I got my small Hughes 500 helicopter that that I was sitting the copilot seat and we made it in record time to Rus Rus and by the time that Steadman came in, I was already on the ground.

(00:15:10)

I told him what happened and he says, “What are you doing here?” And I said, “You’re my friend. I don’t leave my friends behind.”  

So, you know, everybody thinks that this is a ramble kind of move. I had my browning on my side just because that’s a habit but I didn’t even take my M16 with me to the meeting because 600 of them. What am I going to do with him, right? But what I did do is I sat around the fire and I said, “Okay, I want to listen to your grievances” and they were grieving and they were bitching and they were very, very angry. And then I looked at them and I said, “Listen, this is the way — you guys are fighting for a democracy. So, if you can get the rest of the Masood Asata(ph) organization to vote Steadman Fagoth out of power, we will honor that, we will respect that. But if you touch one hair of his head, I will personally lead the troops and go out and get you guys.”  Now, these guys like I said, trained with me for well over a year now, so they knew that I meant business and I promised him, I said, “Look, he is not stealing from you, nobody’s getting resupply. We are having these issues with the government. That’s being fixed and I promise you, I’ll have some supplies for you here tomorrow.” 

So, I literally got on the radio even unsecured, because the guy before me had taken off our one-time pads and I told my boss Colonel Rey(ph) I said, “Hey, whatever you do, I need couple of aircrafts full of beans and bullets over here by tomorrow.”  And lucky for me because 8 o’clock in the morning, those planes were landing in Rus Rus and peace reigned again in the land.

J. Craig Williams:  I can’t imagine that. That’s just amazing. Well Ric, we’re going to take a quick break to hear a word from our sponsor and we’ll be right back. 

Female:  As a lawyer ever, ever wish you could be in two places at once? You could take a call when you’re in court, capture a lead during a meeting. That’s where Posh comes in. We are live virtual receptionists who answer and transfer your calls so you never miss an opportunity and the Posh app lets you control when your receptionist steps in. So, if you can’t answer, Posh can, and if you’ve got it, Posh is just a tap away. With Posh, you can save as much as 40% off your current service provider’s rates. Start your free trial today at posh.com.

J. Craig Williams:  And welcome back to the Lawyer 2 Lawyer on the Legal Talk Network. I’m joined by Ric Prado, a once covert operator of major rank and standing with the CIA and also the author of ‘BLACK Ops: The Life of a CIA Shadow Warrior.’  Personally, having read the book, I highly recommend it. It’s an amazing read. Ric, it just blows my mind that you’ve gone through this. It really harkens back to I think what I read in the beginning of your book, where you said, “if you get hit, hit back harder,”

Ric Prado:  Yeah.

J. Craig Williams:  It’s a tough mantra. It’s I think a mantra that you used throughout your life, but I’m curious about what you think from the standpoint of the political involvement that you faced as a field operative now knowing what you know in your other positions in the CIA. But should more decision-making authority be bested in field operatives?

Ric Prado:  Well, you know, the agency has always until — it’s been reduced of late, but the agency had — the system that we have, the chief of station in a country sits at the right hand of God, even headquarters will listen to them first. You really have to screw up as a chief of station to get headquarters on your case because our leadership is all made from people that made it through the ranks and they work for COSs and now they’ve been COSs(ph). Now that we’re division chiefs or whatever. So that respect was there. So, there was a lot of authority at the chief of station-level for the greater part of my career. Albeit later on in the early 2000s, that was degraded quite a bit and I think for whatever reasons but absolutely, I felt that for the most part, they were listening to us when we had something to say, but it was always through the chief of station.

J. Craig Williams:  You’ve talked on the CBS Sunday Morning interview that you did about Bin Laden, and the CIA’s opportunities being so close to him to take him out and honestly, prevent 911, or at least bring him in for questioning as you said. What was the hold back there?

Ric Prado:  Well, yes, I’m a Plank Owner of the Bin Laden Task Force. I was the Deputy and chief of station. We started that late 95, early and 96 and shortly thereafter. I mean, we literally had a very good friend of mine who was also, part of the CBS program, Billy Waugh, a Legendary Green Beret and legendary contractor of the agency for 20 some years afterwards. Billy was literally hiding in a safe house, overlooking Bin Laden’s compound in the first photographs that we got was by Billy, taken of Bin Laden. 

(00:20:04)

We knew what his security details, if you want to call it that. We knew what car he drove, he often got in his car by himself, to go to places because at the time, Khartoum Sudan was literally a hotel for terrorists. Terrorists of all ilk could go there and as long as they paid the right money, they could live there, they would have driver’s license and nobody would mess with them. 

That was the case with tons of terrorists and that’s what Billy was there to do, keep tabs on them. Billy Waugh is the guy that actually found Carlos the Jackal, Ilich Ramírez, one of the most renowned terrorists in Europe in those years. But anyway, we, the agency and we from the Bin Laden station, we proposed several times up the ladder to allow us to interdict Bin Laden, to disrupt Bin Laden. I’m not talking about necessarily shooting them. Although Billy Waugh himself told me, he says “Look, I was so close to him yesterday, I could have stabbed him with a pencil” but we knew that we could take a small team of guys in there, well-trained with the right and literally kidnap him and drag him out and bring him to justice. 

Now, we all benefit from 20/20 hindsight, but think about it, if we would have been allowed in 1996 to render Bin Laden even temporarily, even if after a year, we had to return him to Saudi Arabia or God forbid anywhere else, the attack on the Cole probably would have not happened, the bombing of our two embassies in Africa simultaneously would have not happened. We lost thousands of lives there and even 9/11 arguably wouldn’t happen.

J. Craig Williams:  So, what’s the evidentiary standard that you used to determine whether you want to interdict someone and what is the standard that’s used by the people higher up to make a decision whether to do that or not?

Ric Prado:  Well, you know, at the operational level, we had all the dots and all the t’s crossed. We had everything in line. We knew that he was training some very radical Muslim Arabs. He came from the Taliban which is primarily Afghani and he is Saudi, he was Saudi. But we knew that he was training these really radicalized former Mujahideen. He had several training camps that we knew from overhead and everything else. They were training in terrorist tactics. We knew that he was donating incredible amount of money to other causes. And you know, the way that I described him when I was in the Bin Laden task force, so I said, “You know, this guy is — he’s becoming the Godfather of terrorism. He is developing ties with so many different organizations that he is really force multiplying and coordinating a lot of these things.”  And that’s what Al Qaeda actually stands for, it means the base. He became the base that linked up with all these other terrorist organizations out there. 

J. Craig Williams:  I’m going to preface my next question with a point, a very fine point I think you made in your book, which is that in America we think that it’s — everything should be fair play and due process. But once you leave our boundaries, the rest of the world is not like that. It’s full of corruption and evil people and people that don’t care about the ultimate outcomes. But there has to be — as an American, you have to ask this question of the CIA, “should we be applying the United States Constitution and our morals and the things that we live by to foreign nationals in circumstances like this?” or which laws should we be applying or do we just apply a moral code of what we know is correct?  

Ric Prado:  I think a moral code of what we know is correct is a much better than affording people the privileges that we have in the United States because we have millions of Americans that have died for that freedom and there’s a lot of people out there that don’t deserve that. They’re not our neighbors, they’re not our friends, they are enemies and you cannot judge the morality of your enemy by your own, you’ll lose every time. There are things that the terrorists would do that I could never do, shoot a kid just to force a father to go blow something up, it happened to us in Iraq.

So, I’m a firm believer that the U.S. Constitution in the U.S. is hallowed ground; that’s where these things apply and everybody else is in a “let’s see who you are” kind of mode. Obviously, we have our allies, the Brits and stuff like that. We would never work against them. But the one thing that I can guarantee you — almost 25 years that I was in CIA, I never saw us targeting anybody for either arrest or for compromising in with the cops or whatever that it wasn’t morally justified. We knew that these individuals were out to do us harm and we needed to do that, to take out — and prevent that.

(00:25:10)

J. Craig Williams:  Well, I have to take this conversation and turn it to current events. We have the situation between Russia and Ukraine, we’ve had at least one United States senator call for Putin’s assassination and been roundly criticized for that because it certainly opens up vice-versa, you know?  That Russia could try and assassinate our president. What’s your perspective on what we can do in this instance from a covert standpoint to be able to resolve this?  And you know, don’t give away any CIA secrets here but what are your thoughts? 

Ric Prado:  Well, let me start by saying it again, you cannot judge our morality by that of our enemies. How many opposition leaders has Putin killed, assassinated with injections and with radiological components or toxics and all these kinds of things?  So, there’s nothing we would do that would make them more prone — more willing to do us that kind of harm. I guarantee you, if they could get to Zelensky, they would. They tried three times and failed, if they really thought that Biden was an impediment to their effort and they could get to him, they would have no qualms about doing anything like that. 

I don’t believe that we are in a position to assassinate anybody, especially the head of a country. What, I think the senator said, was “I hope somebody from his ranks puts a bullet in his head.”  Now, there’s two sides of this argument. First of all, again with the benefit of the 20/20 hindsight, imagine if we would have been able to put a bullet through a surrogate in Hitler’s head in 1938?  How many millions and millions of lives on both sides of the fence would have been saved?  So, what I said and I said this in a later interview, what I would hope is that some of these oligarchs, there are 100 billionaire oligarchs in Russia and they are bleeding money.  Their yachts are being confiscated; their accounts are being frozen. These guys are literally losing tens of million dollars a day. That one of those or the collection of them could force Putin out. Now force Putin out could be buying up all the opposition or having somebody taking them out, that’s their problem. Where the senator was a little naive was nobody that’s really next to Putin, that is part of his inner circle is going to kill Putin. Even if there there’s a little bit of love lost, they’re on the same boat. 

If Putin dies, those guys die. So, but again, I think the oligarchs have the power, the money and definitely the incentive for trying to stop him from doing this stuff. And to tell you the truth, I honestly think that Putin had made a very bad decision and he’s desperately trying to prove otherwise.

J. Craig Williams:  Right, and what’s going on now in terms of the supply lines from the NATO countries moving into Ukraine has quite a of an echo from what you did with Contras.

Ric Prado:  Absolutely, I mean you’re talking a very similar program. I actually — when Venezuela was really being problematic a couple of years ago, I spoke to a friend of mine who at the time was with the NSC and I said “Look, why don’t we start a contra part two program?  You know, we have Columbia, we have Panama nearby. We can definitely do two different fronts and we don’t have to fight. All we have to do is train the brave Venezuelans that are leaving in droves and do like a contra program part two?”  He thought it was a great idea, but it never got political traction, why? I don’t know. I mean if you have a lot of oil and a lot of enemies in our backyard.

J. Craig Williams:  Yeah, and certainly circumstances now that are going to change the relationship between the United States and Venezuela because of the oil. 

Ric Prado:  That’s correct. 

J. Craig Williams:  Well Ric, this has been an absolutely fascinating discussion. I could go on for hours, just sitting down talking with you and reminiscing or hearing about your stories because it’s almost like it’s James Bond, you know? Without the tux.

Ric Prado:  Yeah, and I’m still waiting for Austin Martin.

J. Craig Williams:  Maybe it’ll show up one day, but you had your Walther PPK.

Ric Prado:  I did, I actually did carry one in my ankle most of the time.

J. Craig Williams:  Well Ric, it looks like we’ve just about reached the end of our program, so I’d like to take this opportunity to let you share your final thoughts and give us your contact information. So that folks can learn about your book, ‘BLACK Ops: The Life of a CIA Shadow Warrior.’  

Ric Prado:  Well, thank you. I mean, you can go to ricprado.com and that will take you to all the vendors. 

(00:30:05)

I don’t sell books directly, and neither does the publisher. It goes to Barnes & Noble and Amazon and a couple of others. And what I would like to say about the book is the book was written for the right reasons and those right reasons was I despise the reputation that my poor agency has. We’re the most malign agency in the federal government and while we know about CIA comes from the movies, Hollywood, and that is not only unfair to the agency but it is unfair to the 137 people that we have that have sacrificed their lives most of them anonymously, and there are 137 stars on our wall of honor. I think those individuals deserve their grandchildren to understand what sacrifices their great-grandparents did and why. So that’s the purpose of the book, and in the book, you’re going to see and you read it, real CIA operations done by real case officer. No, Jason Bourne. No, American-made, no Rambo, just a bunch of patriots trying to outsmart the enemy and winning most of the time.

J. Craig Williams:  Ric, thank you, and I highly commend the book. I think it’s time that America learns the truth about the CIA, certainly with the war in Russia and Ukraine, and the historical war, World War II. We need to learn from those experiences and your book really helps out with that. 

Ric Prado:  Thank you very much for having me. 

J. Craig Williams:  Well, Ric Prado is one amazing man. Reading the book will convince you that he is every bit of a Jack Ryan from the Tom Clancy’s novels and a little bit of James Bond all swirled in. But he’s done significant things to protect our country and could have done other significant things to protect our country but was held back because of lack of political will or stomach for the kinds of things that CIA field operatives do. Right now, we’ve got the war raging in Russia and Ukraine, the potential for World War III, if it’s not already. 

We haven’t learned the lessons from World War II yet, although people like Ric Prado had been out there trying to teach that and prevent that. So, it seems that it’s a worthwhile read in his book and perhaps to learn a little bit better about what the CIA does, how our laws as a country apply and how they apply in foreign situations. It is a little bit clandestine and it is a little bit controversial. Certainly, was with the Contras Sandinista affair. And as these days, everything tends to turn political. But there’s also good reasons for the laws and the way that they’re applied and whether they’re applied internationally or applied here at home. So, listen up, learn from Ric and take a page. And for our listeners, if you’ve liked what you heard today, please write us on Apple Podcasts, your favorite podcasting app, you can also visit at LegalTalkNetwork.com, where you can sign up for our newsletter. I’m Craig Williams. Thanks for listening. Please join us next time for another great legal topic. Remember, when you want legal, think Lawyer 2 Lawyer.

[Music]

Outro:  Thanks for listening to Lawyer 2 Lawyer, produced by the broadcast professionals at Legal Talk Network. Subscribe to the RSS feed on legaltalknetwork.com or in iTunes.

The views expressed by the participants of this program are their own and do not represent the views of nor are they endorsed by Legal Talk Network, its officers, directors, employees, agents, representatives, shareholders and subsidiaries. None of the content should be considered legal advice. As always, consult a lawyer.