Lawyers Giving Back

Episode Notes

Transcript

Lawyer 2 Lawyer – Law News and Legal Topics

Lawyers Giving Back

12/19/2017

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Jessie Kornberg: When we see the justice system work for them, the law degree has never meant more.

Shamika T. Askew-Storay: We’re not just lawyers but we’re individuals who love to get back.

Ricky Patel: And how can we use our law degree for something that is, as you said earlier, more than just a job, something that is honorable and helps make this a better place.

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Intro: Welcome to the award-winning podcast Lawyer 2 Lawyer with J. Craig Williams and Robert Ambrogi, bringing you the latest legal news and observations with the leading experts in the legal profession. You are listening to Legal Talk Network.

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Bob Ambrogi: Welcome to Lawyer 2 Lawyer on the Legal Talk Network. This is Bob Ambrogi coming to you from Massachusetts where I write a blog called LawSites, and also host another Legal Talk Network program called Law Technology Now, that one with Monica Bay. My co-host on this program, Craig Williams, is away on business today and unable to be with us.

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Well, formal US Attorney General Janet Reno once said, “Being a lawyer is not merely a vocation, it is a public trust, and each of us has an obligation to give back to our communities.”

So as we approach the holiday season, we thought it would be a good opportunity here on Lawyer 2 Lawyer to talk to some of the lawyers who give back in various ways and hear how they do it and share some of their stories.

So today on Lawyer 2 Lawyer we are going to spotlight three attorneys who are giving back in their own different ways to their communities, not just during this holiday season but year-round, it’s part of what they do.

And we have three great guests with us today. So let me introduce each of them and when we’ll hear more about what each of them does. So let me start today with Jessie Kornberg, an attorney and the President and CEO of Bet Tzedek, a respected public-interest law firm in Los Angeles, California.

Jessie’s tenure has seen the agency grow to address the most pressing legal issues facing low-income families including the nation’s first transgender medical-legal partnership, Los Angeles’ first low income tax and small business startup clinics, and a family preparedness program to respond to growing concerns surrounding the deportation of undocumented parents.

Jessie Kornberg, welcome to Lawyer 2 Lawyer!

Jessie Kornberg: Thank you. So glad to be here!

Bob Ambrogi: Also joining us today is Shamika T. Askew-Storay, the owner and managing attorney of the Storay Advocacy Group located in Brandon, Florida. Shamika has a passion for serving, she’s a volunteer attorney guardian at Litem. She also mentors at-risk juvenile girls by visiting juvenile facilities on a monthly basis. Shamika Askew-Storay, welcome to Lawyer 2 Lawyer to you.

Shamika T. Askew-Storay: Thank you so much, it’s an honor.

Bob Ambrogi: And finally joining us today is attorney Ricky Patel, partner with the firm Farrell Patel Jomarron Lopez. Mr. Patel is extremely charitable in his spare time holding leadership positions, donating over 1500 hours of community service and investing funds in charities, such as Habitat for Humanity, Violence Against Women’s Act, Haitian Orphanage, Fashion Gives Back, Puerto Rico Relief, St. Thomas University, School of Law, American Red Cross, and the Nicklaus Children’s Hospital, where he serves as Vice Chair of the Board of Trustees.

Welcome to the show Ricky Patel.

Ricky Patel: Thank you very much for having me.

Bob Ambrogi: Jessie Kornberg, I want to start with you and ask if you could tell us about Bet Tzedek, what it is, what kinds of work it does?

Jessie Kornberg: Absolutely. So we are based here in Los Angeles and we provide free legal services to residents of LA County who can’t afford a lawyer. We’ve been here in LA for almost 45 years, started out on a storefront on Fairfax Avenue which is in the center of the traditional Jewish Community here in LA.

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We were founded by a group of volunteer lawyers and rabbis who saw a need in the community there, around Fairfax and aging population, folks who were getting evicted from their homes as the area redeveloped, stories like that, and very quickly after opening their doors for their first Wednesday night walk-in clinic realized that the need for legal services extended far beyond the community there and quickly decided that there needed to be a legal services provider for Los Angeles, for all of the neighborhoods of LA, for all of the people in LA who could not afford a lawyer, but needed one to ensure access to the basic necessities of life.

So 45 years later, I have 70 lawyers here at Bet Tzedek, 2,000 volunteers throughout the community, 30,000 clients a year in 15 different areas of poverty law. Everything from Earned Income Tax Credit filings, to eviction defense, to benefits eligibility, helping disabled adults, put in place long term care giving solutions, helping abandoned and neglected children find safe homes and helping Holocaust survivors file claims against the German government for reparations.

So the work is incredibly exciting but very demanding. We have very significant immigrant communities in Los Angeles and the last year has seen a huge uptick and the need for services for those folks, and so we are always trying to make sure that we have resources available for whatever the most urgent and otherwise unmet needs are in our low-income and underserved communities throughout the city.

Bob Ambrogi: I know this is a difficult time for legal services programs anywhere to find funding, there have been cutbacks in IOLTA funds across the country, there have been cutbacks in other funding sources, how do you fund the services that you are providing?

Jessie Kornberg: Yeah, we have a mix of sources of funding. About 20% of our revenue comes from government contracts. Most of those dollars do start at the federal government and pass through our local agencies here and we see those dollars as particularly vulnerable right now, proposed cuts to funding across the board would certainly affect the dollars we’ve received through the Older Americans Act through the Victims of Crime Act and the Violence Against Women Act.

Fortunately, we have other revenue streams from private philanthropy, individuals in our community family foundations and other large philanthropic institutions prioritize social justice and support our work, and so we hope to weather the storm, because we know that the cuts to legal services will be matched in cuts to all kinds of other aids that our clients need desperately. So the need for legal services will only increase even as government funding for legal services decreases.

Bob Ambrogi: Shamika, let me turn to you and ask you about the work you do mentoring at-risk juvenile girls to begin with, how did you get started with that and what are you doing there?

Shamika T. Askew-Storay: So I’ve been a member of Love First Christian Center for a little over two years and as a member of Love First Christian Center they made an announcement on a particular Sunday about the need for mentors to young adults who are in juvenile facilities, and so, when I heard about it, I immediately thought this will be a great opportunity for me to give back because I’ve been a mentor for quite some years.

So after that Sunday I signed up, I went through all of the application and background checks, and from there, in 2015, I was matched with a mentee and the mentees I have mentor has range from the ages of 15 to 17. Unfortunately these young girls are getting into trouble in the legal system, and unfortunately in the legal system they are cutting themselves, they are getting into more trouble with the girls and just having a hard time coping with life.

So I have been involved for over two years now and I provide stability, love and consistency, some of the things that these young girls do not see often because they come from foster care, and some of them are actually adopted and others aren’t. So I’ve been involved in the Tampa area for, like I said, two years now.

Bob Ambrogi: Is this work in which you’re drawing on your skills as an attorney or is it just more general kind of mentoring?

Shamika T. Askew-Storay: This is actually just general mentoring. I have been mentoring for two years but I’ve only been licensed in the State of Florida for a little over a year, it’ll be two years in April of 2018. So I found out about this work just as a member of my church and I just have a passion to serve. So it’s not related to my work at all. It’s something that I do on a volunteer basis.

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I actually meet with my current mentee at least once a week. If I don’t see her face to face, then I try to send a card or a letter. So this is separate from being an attorney, it’s just a passion of mine.

Bob Ambrogi: And you also do work as a volunteer Guardian Ad Litem, can you tell us about that?

Shamika T. Askew-Storay: Of course, so the Guardian Ad Litem program is a program that was established to ensure that children’s interests are represented. Unfortunately, these children are taking out of their homes whether they are with mom and dad or with mom or dad.

And so they’re placed in the foster care system most times, some are placed with a relative, and unfortunately the circumstances involve them being abused, abandoned or neglected, and so, I saw that there was a need for attorneys as well as just people in the community to help out.

I actually was gained an interest in this area as a young girl because I have a relative that had her five children taken away when I was very young, and I didn’t understand it at the time. And now that I’m older and I’m licensed to practice, I see that there are things that occur in our lives that happened and we make mistakes.

So I just felt like what a great opportunity to be involved in children’s lives again and provide that stability, that love, and any resources that the foster care parents or the relative caretaker needs, then I will ensure that those needs are being met through the Guardian Ad Litem program.

So it’s been a great program. I’ve been involved with this since about 2016 and it’s worthwhile. I see the children every month and actually this month, I’ll be taking two gifts to each child to fill their Christmas with love and just know that they are care for, although they are in the foster care system.

Bob Ambrogi: Ricky Patel, last but not least here, I would like to turn to you, and so, I said earlier you donate — it looks like huge numbers of hours of your time to community service work. Tell us a little bit about what you are doing outside the 9 to 5 of practicing law or 8 to 6 or whatever it might be for you?

Ricky Patel: Yeah, I wish that the practice was 9 to 5, so I am one of the founding partners here at Farrell Patel Jomarron & Lopez. We founded the law firm after graduating from law school, we graduated pretty much when the economy collapsed, so it was a sink or swim situation.

One of the things that we started doing was taking on any cases that came through the door so we could pay the bills. After I would say about a year, year-and-a-half, we landed one of the largest class actions in the US history, which changed the perspective of the firm and allowed us to have a little bit more flexibility.

One of the things that the partners agreed on, was, we wanted to make sure that we were making an impact, both with our resources and with our law degrees. That shaped a lot of the firm to the types of cases that we handle, which is one part of the story. We take on cases where individuals do not have adequate representation, with recently the past few years been handling cases involving Title 9, which involves young women in college who have been raped and have not been afforded the ability to continue their education.

We’ve been involved in that. We’ve been involved with going against pharmaceutical companies that have harmed babies, just any opportunity to help out those or seeking justice and don’t have the representation.

As far as the charitable aspect, I’m the Vice-Chairman of the now Nicklaus Children’s Hospital here in Miami, Florida. One of the things that I thought was very important was to go ahead and help out once again the individuals that can’t protect themselves and who better to help out than children?

So we started initially making contributions, which led to spending a little bit of time helping, which has turned to spending about 50% off my time dealing with the hospital, the Board and any activities to not just raise awareness but to go and spend time with the children that aren’t able to leave the hospital or find ways to get adequate treatment, and it’s been a pleasure.

As of recently, it’s now turned from the Children’s Hospital to also as you’ve seen with the Hurricane that went through Puerto Rico, which has devastated an area, I live half the year in Puerto Rico, half the year in Miami, so we try to help out over there. It’s every year there’s been some type of disaster, which has kind of dragged us in there.

Our law firm actually has our own orphanage in Haiti too. We have 40 children over there, and instead of just funding it, I actually go there and I stay there every two months. So it’s the moment I wake up till the very second that I fall asleep, there’s something going on with trying to figure out how can we get back, how can we make things better, and how can we use our law degree for something that is, as you said earlier, more than just a job. Something that is honorable and helps make this a better place.

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Bob Ambrogi: Well, that’s really impressive. I used to practice in the Virgin Islands, which was also hit by that Hurricane, of course.

Ricky Patel: Right.

Bob Ambrogi: Both — two hurricanes this year.

Ricky Patel: Exactly.

Bob Ambrogi: So I can appreciate the work that you do there. We need to take a short break and we will continue this discussion in just a moment. So please stay with us while we hear a message from our sponsors.

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Bob Ambrogi: Welcome back to Lawyer 2 Lawyer. This is Bob Ambrogi. Joining us today is attorney Jessie Kornberg, President and CEO of Bet Tzedek; attorney Shamika T. Askew-Storay, Owner and Managing Attorney of the Storay Advocacy Group; and attorney Ricky Patel, partner with the firm Farrell Patel Jomarron & Lopez.

And we are talking about lawyers giving back in various ways, and Jessie, I wanted to circle back to you. You’ve talked about the work that Bet Tzedek does in the community and you rely heavily, it sounds like on attorney’s volunteer, and I know that you’ve done a lot of volunteering yourself and a lot of community service work over the course of your career.

I understand the value to the community. I think that’s clear. I am wondering what the attorneys get out of doing this kind of work, what’s your perspective on the valley to attorneys of doing good things and in providing pro bono services in their communities?

Jessie Kornberg: Yeah, well, I think there are a couple of benefits. I think very practically we see a lot of law firm lawyers encourage their junior associates to volunteer with us because we will give them an opportunity to get hands-on experience, working directly with clients, conducting interviews, gathering facts and then presenting them both in briefing and in oral argument to a court, much faster than a typical defense side large law firm context might provide.

And so those law firms benefit because their folks are getting great training from us and great exposure to the practice. Those associates benefit because they are gaining those skills and getting to engage in community work. And of course, we benefit and our clients benefit because they are receiving excellent legal representation under our supervision. So there is that practical benefit for all concerned.

I also think as a person who has engaged in social justice work and community work most of my career, it’s hard to quantify the meaning and the satisfaction, and the fulfillment that comes with putting your legal degree to use in a way that so dramatically improves your clients’ experience.

We all go to law school for one of two reasons; to change the world or at least to protect our clients, and that’s the reason to be a lawyer, is to use the law to your clients’ benefit. And there is no more dramatic example of how the law can benefit a client than in the legal services context, because the stakes of litigation are always so incredibly high in our practice.

I often joke with very fancy defense side law firms that pride themselves on bet the company litigation that every single case at Bet Tzedek is a bet that company matter because when you are at risk of losing your home or at risk of losing your job or at risk of losing the means by which you afford food and medical care, it is bet the company and so we can do nothing less than the most excellent, diligent representation, imaginable for each of our clients, and when we do, and when we see the justice system work for them, the law degree has never meant more.

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So for me it’s always been at least as self-interested as community interested because there’s no better feeling about oneself than the feeling I get when I get to engage in this work and see our clients thrive and see their strengths as they face these challenges in their lives. So for me the benefits are obvious and plentiful.

Bob Ambrogi: Well, I’d like to think you’re right that most lawyers went to law school in the first place because they want to help clients and help people for the better, I’m not sure they all come out of law school still having that aspiration. I think sometimes making money gets in the way of that. But, Shamika, what about you? What’s your motivation as an attorney for wanting to give back to your community in the ways that you do?

Shamika T. Askew-Storay: For me it’s internal gratification. So I knew early on that I wanted to make a difference in the world and what better way to do that than serving my community by giving my time and resources and also just affording the legal services that I can provide as an attorney. So I can’t really speak to the other attorneys but I do know that most of us as it was said earlier we went to law school to make a difference and I am a firm believer that it’s better to give and what better way to do that by utilizing the legal skills that I’ve learned and that we’ve all learned as attorneys to help our community.

So it’s gratifying knowing that every day I can get up and make a difference in the world whether or not that’s what the mentees that I mentor and the juvenile facilities or if that’s the children that I visit at the foster care institutions or whether that’s with clients in helping them through their darkest times, a little prayer and encouraging where it can go a long way. So for me it’s just very fulfilling.

Bob Ambrogi: And Ricky, it sounds like you’re really fortunate to be in a firm of like-minded attorneys who share your commitment to giving back, but it’s kind of the same question to you, what’s your motivation for doing this? Why do you feel it’s important for you to be giving back in the way that you and your partners do?

Ricky Patel: I think there’s two reasons behind and I’ll speak for myself. The first is we’ve been given a lot, I mean I’ve come from very, very humble beginnings and we have been very, very successful in this field and there’s a sense of we have to make a difference, we have to be able to take this and help others as much as possible. And my second big reason is, I have a two-year-old and a four-year-old, two sweet girls and it’s one of those things that I want them to grow up knowing that we made a difference, we changed things, we were able to use this law degree to create equality, and give representation to those that need it.

And I feel if I can accomplish that it will give a blueprint for what we need the next generation, the generations do after that and if we all just do just our part we can try and make this messy world a little bit better.

Bob Ambrogi: Jessie, is there a story or anything you can share from the work at Bet Tzedek that you think kind of exemplifies what you do or what Bet Tzedek does for the community?

Jessie Kornberg: Sure. I think one thing that’s been really interesting to understand about the work here is the way that our lawyers are able to use knowledge and experience that they gain from working with one population and let it benefit so many others. I shared the story of how our agency was originally inspired by need in the Jewish Community, and I’d like to share a modern-day example of how that original need in the original community that started our work continues to inspire the work for all.

So we still do work as I mentioned with Holocaust survivors helping them claim reparations against the German government. As part of that work and wanting to be truly expert in those representations, we have taken a trauma-informed approach to our service delivery model, understanding that Holocaust survivors are victims of intense violence survivors of war often disabled and frequently alone without any surviving family or assets. And that experience can create lasting trauma in a person and it means they may be less willing to ask for help, less able to engage in government bureaucratic procedures, less comfortable standing in line in environments with uniformed officers, less comfortable signing their name to legal documents or identifying themselves in government databases and on and on.

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And understanding the life experience that brings someone to our doors is I think very important in our ability to create that trusting attorney-client relationship. And we’ve taken that expertise that we have gained in the Holocaust reparations context and seeing how useful the same approach can be for example with our clients who are survivors of human trafficking.

And so taking what we’ve learned in one context and seeing how that can translate to a benefit for so many others for victims of domestic violence, for victims of trafficking, for other kinds of trauma has been instrumental, and I’ll just give one classic example.

In the last five years, there’s been a large number of unaccompanied, undocumented minor children who have traveled from Central America to the United States, seeking refuge from violence in their home countries. They arrive here on their own and frequently land either in homeless shelters or detention centers. And if we are able to identify a legal guardian here in the United States willing to take custody of them and prove that they are safer here than in their home country, we can actually obtain legal immigration protections for those children to remain here.

We have pursued thousands of those cases over the last several years. I just want to share the story of one of them. My staff attorney Erickson was representing a young woman. She came here when she was 11 from Honduras. She had no family here in the United States but a mission in South Los Angeles had a congregant who was willing to take her in and be a legal guardian for her. We represented her in the probate court here in Los Angeles in that guardianship petition and we faced some skepticism from the presiding judge.

He argued that since out of age 11 she was strong enough and resilient enough to make the treacherous journey across the border which for her involved 14 days in a crate underneath a truck. She was surely strong enough to make it back to her country of origin and survive there, and that she didn’t need the protections of a life in the United States.

And Erickson who has lots of experience at Bet Tzedek working with Holocaust survivors was able to share his experience with that population and say, look, no one has shown more resilience than the survivors that we work with, who survived unimaginable hardship and terror in their home country, sought refuge in this country and have continued to struggle to survive while here. Holocaust survivors are four times as likely to live in poverty as other seniors their age. And so despite their strength and despite their survival they continue to live with lingering capacity and disability issues.

And this child who survived the trafficking process into this country, an unbelievable violence in her own country, was in a similar situation and really did need the protections of a life in the United States to thrive for the rest of her childhood and into adulthood. And so, it was so inspiring to me to see this advocate there that day to defend the rights of an unaccompanied immigrant child by using our reputation and our expertise and our experience with a very different population from a totally other generation and bring that to bear in this case for that child and he was ultimately successful. And I’m happy to say that that child is now 14 and still living safely with that church member and we’re so glad that we’re able to do that work on behalf of her and so many other households like hers. It’s been a really rewarding experience.

Bob Ambrogi: Yeah, I can see how that would be very rewarding. Shamika, same question, do you have any — is there a story or anything you can share from your own experience that exemplifies what makes it valuable to you and the work that you do?

Shamika T. Askew-Storay: Of course. So the Storay Advocacy Group, P.A. was actually established to provide affordable and quality legal services, it was my intent and my heart’s desire to meet the needs of those individuals who are representing themselves in family law matters, civil cases, et cetera.

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And so, in doing that I have come across several individuals who’ve literally cried to me and indicated that they were so fortunate and blessed to come across our firm’s name and have us represent them, because unfortunately they could not afford the high price retainer rates and retainer fees, and so it has been worthwhile to know that the firm is making a difference in helping those individuals who unfortunately cannot afford the free legal aid and they don’t qualify for a free legal aid because they make too much money and they can afford the high-priced attorney.

So we’re meeting that middle ground trying to close the gap and ensure that people have legal access. So that’s been worthwhile for us to know that we’re making a difference in that area and that we’re right on track with making a difference in this world.

Bob Ambrogi: And Ricky, I’m going to not to be redundant here, but I can ask you the same question, is there a story that you want to share from your experience?

Ricky Patel: Yes. So I would go to a case that we’ve been handling for quite some time now. We have a case once again involving Title IX, which is the protection afforded to young women who have been raped or sexually assaulted in University, and one of my clients who is well-known in the media LaPrise Williams, has just been in my opinion one of my heroes.

She came forward after being one of the head coaches at the University, she was notified by over 40 young women about rapes that occurred against them. This is after she randomly spoke at church one day about incident with her when she was a child, didn’t expect to speak about this but she did and after that every day for months girls were coming to her office that had never spoken about this to anyone else and were speaking about some brutal rapes that occurred, and we have been working with her side by side for quite some time to try and change some of these laws to make it so that there’s more protection afforded to a lot of these girls, that there’s a safe harbor, there’s a place where they can come forward and speak about what happened, get the counseling they need and help them get them back in school, because a lot of the girls what ends up happening is, they are so afraid to speak up, they feel instead of feeling like the victim, they feel like they did something wrong. There is this whole shifting the blame of what has happened, and a lot of them end up not completing college and dropping out and most people will never have a clue about what happened.

So that’s been one of my most prideful moments with the law firm. It’s been working with LaPrise and finding ways that we can take this horrific experience and change and modify laws and regulations around the country so that if this ever happens to another individuals that they are offered the protection that they need, so they can get back to studying and continuing their life without things falling apart because of this travesty.

Bob Ambrogi: We’re getting near the end of the time for our show, I want to go around one more time and ask each of you to kind of give your final thoughts on today’s topic, and also, let our listeners know how they can find out more about the good work you are doing and follow up with you?

So with Jessie Kornberg, let me bring it back to you.

Jessie Kornberg: Sure. I guess, I want to say, since the election I talked to a lot of people who feel helpless or hopeless about what they can do to make a world the kind of place they want to live in, and I would just say that a lot of the work that Bet Tzedek does, we were doing before this election, and we’re going to do it after the next election. That poverty was here before and social inequity was here before and structural injustice was here before, and it’s going to continue for some time. And so we need lawyers, and we need those who want to be advocates for those who don’t otherwise have a voice in our justice system to step up and participate, and when you do you will not feel hopeless or helpless, I promise; you will feel powerful, and it’s a great way to feel.

If you want to get involved in Los Angeles or in any of the cities across the country where we help Holocaust survivors, you can just log onto our website  HYPERLINK “http://www.bettzedek.org/”www.bettzedek.org, and yes, I do know that all those letters rhyme. Thanks.

Bob Ambrogi: Thank you. Thank you very much. Shamika Askew-Storay, your final thoughts and how can we find out more about you?

Shamika T. Askew-Storay: This podcast was great, because I believe that it symbolizes “The Private Attorneys with Public Servants’ Hearts”, that’s our firm’s slogan and it’s important because I believe there’s a big misconception with lawyers being that most private attorneys are looking for monies only.

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And I believe that all three of us have done a great job letting people know that we’re not just lawyers but we’re individuals who love to give back.

So, thank you so much for the opportunity. One way in which someone can get in contact with us is by logging on to their computer and typing in  HYPERLINK “http://www.saglawoffice.com/”www.saglawoffice.com. They can also find us on Facebook and Instagram @saglawoffice. Thank you.

Bob Ambrogi: “The Private Attorneys with Public Servants’ Hearts”, I love that. Ricky Patel, you get the last word, your final thoughts and how can our listeners find out more about what you folks do?

Ricky Patel: Perfect, thank you. I would like to just send this message out there, especially for a lot of the lawyers and future lawyers out there is sometimes we’re so wrapped up in the day-to-day motions, whatever it may be that’s going on that we don’t take a second to just stop and realize how lucky we are to be in — number one, the greatest country in the whole world, to be able to practice this great profession, and let’s take just a little bit of our time out, no matter how busy we are, and find out how can we make the lives of even one person better.

If we can do that, once again, this is a team effort. The three of us can’t fix everything, it requires everyone to pitch in. To find out a little bit more on how anyone can help, I’m always available. I will give you my website, it’s  HYPERLINK “http://www.justice360.com/”www.justice360.com. I will always find time to help individuals come up with creative ways to give back and help others and let’s try and make this profession something that we’re proud of and that people look at and see it as a great profession.

Bob Ambrogi: Well, we’ve been talking this show about lawyers giving back with three lawyers who are giving back. Jessie Kornberg, President and CEO of Bet Tzedek in Los Angeles. Shamika Askew-Storay, owner and managing attorney of the Storay Advocacy Group in Brandon, Florida, and attorney Ricky Patel, partner with the firm, Farrell Patel Jomarron & Lopez in Miami, Florida. Really honored to have shared this time with each of you, and thanks for being with us and thanks for all the good work you’re doing.

Shamika T. Askew-Storay: Thank you.

Ricky Patel: Thank you very much.

Bob Ambrogi: Well, that looks like we’ve reached the end of our program. Thanks to all of you for listening today. If you’d like what you heard on Lawyer 2 Lawyer, please rate us in Apple Podcasts.

This is Bob Ambrogi on behalf of Craig Williams and everybody at the Legal Talk Network, thanks for listening. Join us next time for another great legal topic. When you want legal, think Lawyer 2 Lawyer.

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