Dennis and Tom are hard at work on the first step in their Second Brain project—developing methods of capturing information. They share their approaches to identifying valuable content and consider possibilities for workflows and automation. In their second segment, they discuss whether they believe the notion that older generations of lawyers are better at cyber security than young lawyers.
As always, stay tuned for the parting shots, that one tip, website, or observation you can use the second the podcast ends.
Have a technology question for Dennis and Tom? Call their Tech Question Hotline at 720-441-6820 for answers to your most burning tech questions.
Special thanks to our sponsors, ServeNow and Colonial Surety Company.
The Kennedy-Mighell Report
Second Brain Project: Capture, Part 1
Intro: Web 2.0. Innovation. Trends. Collaboration. Software as a Service. Metadata.
Got the world turning as fast as it can? Hear how technology can help legally speaking with two of the top legal technology experts, authors and lawyers. Dennis Kennedy and Tom Mighell. Welcome to The Kennedy-Mighell Report, here on the Legal Talk Network.
Dennis Kennedy: Welcome to episode 265 of The Kennedy-Mighell Report. I’m Denis Kennedy in Ann Arbor.
Tom Mighell: And I’m Tom Mighell in Dallas. Before we get started, we’d like to thank our sponsors.
Dennis Kennedy: First of all, we’d like to thank Colonial Surety Company, Bonds and Insurance for bringing you this podcast. Whatever court bonds you need, get a quote and purchase online at colonialsurety.com/podcast.
Tom Mighell: And we’d also like to thank ServeNow, a nationwide network of trusted pre-screened process servers. Work with the most professional process servers who have experience with high volume serves, embrace technology and understand the litigation process. Visit servenow.com to learn more.
Dennis Kennedy: As always, we want to mention that the second edition of our book, The Lawyer’s Guide to Collaboration Tools and Technologies is available on Amazon. Everyone agrees that collaboration is essential in today’s world, but now more than ever, knowing the right tools will make all the difference.
As I’d like to say at the start of all of our recent podcasts, what a difference another week or two makes and the unexpected just keeps happening. In our last episode, we took a step back and reflected on what we’ve learned in 2020 and whether what will really help us be ready for the rest of 2020 or even the next week or so. I really don’t know at this point. In this episode, we wanted to start what will ultimately be a whole series of episodes we’re going to do at our Second Brain Project. So you can share in what we are thinking and doing. I’m pleasantly surprised by the number of people who said something could be about how interested they are in the Second Brain Project, so we decided to really dig into it.
Tom, what’s all on our agenda for this episode?
Tom Mighell: Well Dennis, in this edition of The Kennedy-Mighell Report, we will indeed be giving an update on our Second Brain Project this time with a focus on that first step capture. In our second segment, we’ll examine the contention we’re hearing that older lawyers are much better at cybersecurity than younger lawyers. Remember, you can leave us your question for our second segment on our voicemail at 720-441-6820 and as usual, we’ll finish up with our parting shots that one tip website or observation that you can start to use the second that this podcast is over.
But first up, an update on our Second Brain Project. If you remember in episode 263, just two episodes ago, we started to discuss the notion of building a second brain and we promised that we would give you a peek behind the curtains of how we were going about doing that. Following the podcast, Dennis came up with an outline of his approach to building a Second Brain Project. Dennis seems to think our approaches are different. I’m not sure that they’re very different, but even if they are, I think part of the argument that we’re going to make is that’s okay.
Before we start on what we agree is that first step to building a Second Brain Capture, I want to restate what I think our project is and then Dennis, you can follow along with that. My concept of a second brain is that it is a personal knowledge base, a digital repository of all the things you want to remember that your first brain, the main brain, cannot hold. A second brain helps you to offload your ideas where they can be useful to you at a future time where you can be creative, where you can capture all the things that you consume on a daily basis so you can never remember past the first reading and you want to go back to and find. I think a second brain is a very personal thing. My second brain might be constructed very differently from yours and vice versa and I think that’s okay.
I might choose different ways of getting information into my second brain than you do and that’s also okay. My second brain is how I define it and yours is how you define it. I view this project that we are discussing as you and I jointly building own personal second brains sharing our requirements, sharing our learning but ultimately, I think what each of us gets out of this project will necessarily be different. Where I think our approaches appear to differ at the beginning is that I’m looking maybe at different second brain tools than you are or were and I don’t think that matters. I think that how we collaborate on this project lies in between however we each choose to construct our own second brain, which is going to I think have its own set of interesting challenges but shouldn’t limit how we each approach this project from our personal standpoint.
All right, I said a lot. I’ve vomited up a lot of stuff. Dennis, how does my description differ from yours?
Dennis Kennedy: Well, they consolidate. I think, as you say, we’re kind of on the same page and there’s going to be some difference in details that we’ll go into, but I think there is that notion that it’s going to be that place that we keep things, I think personal knowledge management is a key concept in this and just go see how and we sort things that are in the nature of notes but they can take all sorts of various forms; could be resources, increasingly audio/video, other forms the data that we can reuse and I think that how we want to use it in the future will have an impact on what we’re doing. But I think there could be commonality and there’s definitely commonality in the first part because that’s the one thing that I think drew us to this project and that’s the notion of capture. So you can call it gather, you could call collect, we’ve chosen capture. But the idea is that, “Hey, there’s all this stuff that we do,” and you can look around yourself even as you listen to this and say, “You know, there’s stuff that I do on my phone, stuff I might do on a table, stuff I do on computers, there’s still stuff I write, there’s stuff that just might be gathered about me automatically, stuff that I record, stuff that I watch, and how can I gather that stuff so it becomes useful?”
And so, there’s a couple of steps to that I think, but you as well, Thomas, it’s like you start to think about if you and there’s like, “What do identify, where would I put it, what do I do with it?” And that I think the interesting thing for us as we start to look into this project, we fell right into the trap that we always warn people about and we know better this time but we went right for the tools first, didn’t we?
Tom Mighell: I’m going to disagree with you. You may have fallen into a tools first trap, but I really think that there needs to be — I think that the question we need to be asking first about capture is not about what tool or even what to capture, but why are we capturing anything in the first place. I think the “why” needs to happen. What is the purpose for the capture that we want to have? How are we defining our personal knowledge base? Been reading a lot on this lately, one way of thinking about this is a quote from Richard Feynman, who is a physicist. He said, “You have to keep a dozen of your favorite problems constantly present in your mind and when you have an idea of the problems that you want to solve, what to capture becomes a lot more straightforward.” You capture to find answers to those problems.
So, the problem could be as simple as “I want to get better at explaining a particular regulation to my clients” or “I want to get better at marketing my practice” or “as we’re talking about here, I want to manage my knowledge better.”
One way that I like to think about it is how future me would think reading this information years from now, would it be helpful or would I just say why in the world did I keep this around. Of course, there are going to be other things that are going to be valuable for some reason, so I might want to keep obviously my tax documents. I want to keep a copy of a receipt that I got here so I know where to go back. You have to get good at deciding what to keep and what not to keep and I think that capturing anything and everything without regard to whether or not it might be important to you in the future or will help you solve some problem is going to result in a second brain that is overwhelmingly filled with useless information.
I think part of this is because I’ve been doing information governance for the last 10 years. I’m a big believer in keeping the right amount of information and I think the same applies here. So, I will say first, that’s where I’m approaching it is the “why” and then that gets us to the “what” after we start talking about that. I’m sorry for taking a short detour, but that’s where my head has been in thinking about what I want to capture, I need to think about the “why” first.
Dennis Kennedy: Yeah, I think that’s where I ended up but we — and I would say by “we” I might be meaning me but I definitely made that head feint toward tools right away. But can I just put it into one note, can I just stay in the Microsoft 365 world, is there something out there like a notion or one of these new notes, tools like Rome or Obsidian that it makes sense for me to jump right into and that’s going to be good enough.
And other people as they look at it might say, “Well, you know, I’ve been doing this same sort of thing for a long time and I have these folders and I have nested folders and I might have a system of tags or something like that.” And I think that that becomes hard to maintain typically. It becomes personal and then as we look — one thing I’ve noticed is on your phones and your tablets, that whole concept of folders is starting to disappear a little bit. I think you preliminary want to look at those things but you are looking at the at the “why” and I’m probably going to err on the side of bringing more in than lesson because I want to just be able to say, “Hmm, could be interesting, boom, get it in there and I’ll be able to find it later rather than to take a deeper look at the beginning and get more stuff in to start.” So you’re just going to to realize your personality on that, but that kind of goes into the “why” and say, “Okay, what is it that I’m doing?” And then pull back or you might say, “What problem do you want to solve?” And then pull back and say, “Can we put the tools part of this back a little bit?” And not say, “Oh, this is just going to be nested folders, it’s just going to be OneNote or whatever you might have started with.”
Well Tom, I went to identify first and grab some categories. Is that probably a good place to start?
Tom Mighell: Well, I think it is but I think our categories, like you said, are going to be a little bit different but it’s going to be part of you know you say you’re going to err on the side of keeping more than less. I’ve looked at some of your categories. For example, on your list, I’m going to call one or two things out in particular but one of the things on your list that you potentially want to capture are your likes on social media and I’m thinking the other day, I liked a random comment that somebody made that said, “Oh yeah, I’ll never do that again.”
Why would I want to capture that comment? It’s totally out of context, I won’t pay attention to it, I have no idea what it means, so I think that our categories are necessarily going to differ because it’s going to depend on what we want to capture and what’s going to happen and I will tell you, I think that where I can see your and my differences starting to arise for example, is just for the audience’s benefit, we are reorganizing here at Kennedy-Mighell Report central, we’re reorganizing some of the channels we use in Microsoft Teams and I asked Dennis if he was okay with me deleting our chat in those channels and I could feel the tension humming across the airwaves where Dennis asked if we could cut and paste the chat into a Word Document and save it somewhere and in my opinion, there is nothing in that chat that I need to keep. Our chat is casual discussion. It’s us just chatting and joking and making light with each other and it’s not likely to be important to me in the future; and I think that means the difference is you’re just not sure if that’s going to have value to you in the future, you want to keep it anyway and I’m pretty sure that it’s not.
And so, my opinion on capture is that that way of thinking leads to keeping so much information that you don’t know what to do with it, how to find anything, how to actually use it, that’s going to come up in a future episode when we talk about find or organize or whatever that winds up being. We’re not going to talk about that today but I’m skeptical about the ability to manage a second brain that’s keeping all of those categories that you have. But that’s again, it’s a you do you and I do me.
Dennis Kennedy: The funny thing is right before we started recording tonight, you were looking up something that I said in a chat.
Tom Mighell: Well, but see, that was just to remind you that you had said something in the past and while it was good for the satisfaction of getting you back on that, I just — you’re right, there is the outlier that that would be useful to me.
Dennis Kennedy: Yes, so I think one of the things is as I look into what I want, I say well, clearly, I’m a writer so I want to have stuff that I can use when I write in the future, so anything that looks interesting to me now, it’d be great to have that stuff. I also do presentations. I also teach. There’s a bunch of other things, so I’m going to create, so what I want to have is this stuff that I capture when I say, “Oh, I want to write about some topic that I can put my hands on that stuff,” without getting frustrated going out into Google and seeing how everybody has SEO thing and I’m diving through all these essentially click forms just trying to find information.
I’d rather just grab the stuff that I’ve found this valuable. So that, again, is kind of going with the why in mind. On my social media likes, I use that as a way of bookmarking stuff that’s interesting to me, so that gets factored in account, other people would not use things that way. I really have this blank spot where I’d like to be able to keep references to podcasts or even parts of podcasts to refer to in the future and haven’t really found a great tool, if any tool to do that.
That’s when I start to look at the categories, that’s how I did it and I knew that Tom and I would be somewhat different, but my learning from what I did other than that probably I’m looking to capture too much is that I think there really is a need to kind of just do this informal audit checklist of what it is that you’re already doing, what information that you’d like to capture that you feel you’re missing for now and then what you might want to be capturing in the future and then take a little extra time and put that work in at the start is the lesson that I have and I think more than Tom, I just worry about certain things that I know I’m currently missing that I would like to have and not need to go out and find them again.
Tom Mighell: Well, I think that the audit that you described is useful but I only think that it’s useful if you do that in conjunction with the “why.” When you look at each thing in the list, ask yourself why do I need to capture all of that. I’m hoping that the answer to those questions is you never know if I might need it. I hope that’s not the answer to most of those things and then I think that frankly, Dennis, I think we’re headed to a second episode on capture because we really haven’t talked much about the “how.” We haven’t really talked about the tools to capture the information and I think that as much as we don’t want to jump into tools first, we’re probably going to have to jump into it at some point. I don’t want to do it in this podcast but I think we’re going to have to do it.
And here’s the challenge is you brought one example up exactly, which is podcasts. I don’t want to keep a recording of every podcasts that I listen to that I found something useful in. I think that’s a waste of space. I don’t even want to keep an entire recording of a podcast that has something in it that might solve one of my 12 problems. I just want to capture the content from the podcast that will help me. I was listening to a podcast about podcasting and it had some great statistics in it and had some great commentary in it and I just want that part. I don’t want anything else that’s in it and being able to get to that is a challenge.
The tools that are out there right now are not sufficient to do that. Let’s talk about that in a follow-up episode, but it’s the same thing with articles or books. I don’t want to have to go through a book or an article to find stuff of value. I want to be able to highlight the information that’s important to me and I want that information to be taken out and synthesized and summarized and put into my words with my own additions in a place that makes sense to me rather than me having to go back to that book and so that’s really what the “how” is going to be like, which is why capturing that book is not important to me. Capturing the parts of the book that are important to me is what’s important to me.
So I keep repeating my words here but I think that when we get to the next part which is the how do we actually do that, I think we start to get a little bit more clarity and well, it’s more clarity but to me, more confusion because capturing all these things is not just a one tool solves everything project and so, we’re going to have a lot to talk about I think in future episodes.
Dennis Kennedy: Right and I think, you’re going to have to look at what your actual approach is because there are going to be some — so I say, it needs to be super easy, whatever I do to capture things it means to be super easy to pull stuff in and then eventually to pull that out to use it later. There are other people who are going to hear what we’re saying, Tom, and then go, “You guys are nuts!”
You’re worried about like capturing video or podcasts or whatever, you just take notes and all you’re doing is capturing your notes and the fact is you just write notes and you put them into folders that you label and it’s totally easy and you go like, “Yeah, that’s not me. That is not me.”
So I know that won’t work but if you can do that, that’s going to simplify things because if you’re busily taking notes while you’re listening to things and stuff like that, which, you know, more power to you if you can but a lot of us, a lot of people listening to are used to when you went out listen to podcasts in cars so you’re not taking handwritten notes and all those things like that. So that how you get your information and the form that you do it is going to have a big impact on what you design and then ultimately the tools because if 90% of what you’re doing is pulling in notes that you’re taking and that’s just part of your discipline and practice, it’s a different tool than me saying like, “Oh, here’s a 50-page eBook or white paper on exactly a topic I care about and I want to go back to and there’s no way I’m going to read it now. I just want to keep it so I don’t have to find it on the Internet again. I’m not going to have any summary of that so I wanted something that’s more automatic and maybe when we go to other stages, it’s going to be able to pull keywords, tags, other things out of that automatically for me. It’s just a different approach.
This is why I think the audit thing in a number of ways really will help you and that’s why we led with the notion of we’ve made that head feint toward tools but really, the more you think it through, your tools choices are going to start to fall into place. That’s how I look at time so for me, I’m looking at things like automation, simplicity. I can’t really do categories, folders or super heavy front-end organization, well, so that becomes a key part for me and while I think and each approach is right, but I think you have somewhat a different approach.
Tom Mighell: Well, I don’t know that I do. I would prefer this to be as automated as possible. I’ve tried to look at ways to automate some of this, have not been as successful as I want to be because I just don’t think that some of the automation is there, well, without a lot of tinkering.
But I think that the main problem is that the way to capture all the things we want to capture, the how of it is all going to be different. I’d like to be able to capture it all. I’d like to set up some good workflows that either automated or not, don’t take a lot of time. I see something I like, I’m able to capture it. It’s easy, it’s simple, it works and I’m not convinced that that’s going to hold for everything. Just basic questions. Do I need to convert everything to PDF so it’s searchable that goes into my second brain because there are some things that I can put into my second brain that won’t be searchable, so how do I guarantee that that’s going to happen?
Putting it all in one format, attractive, but time consuming, not simple but it gets you to a place where you need to be. So there’s a lot of questions I think we still need to answer. I don’t think that there is a perfect solution. I don’t think there’s a one size fits all but I tell you that this whole process is very interesting to me and I’m learning a lot about myself and how I like to do things and I’m looking forward to the next step, which is identifying some of these tools that will help you with the how, which I suppose will be sort of our next steps that we’ll talk about on an upcoming episode.
Dennis Kennedy: Right and I would say that for me, I just want to go as big and as broad as possible knowing that probably at the start, I’ll need to prioritize what’s important and I’ll look at some of the things I’m doing like that, “I got to admit it, Tom’s right, what I’m doing here makes no sense.” No, so there is a better way of doing it so maybe I can slim down on the front end but I think it’s an interesting time because we’ve taken this project which we sort of invented out of thin air and like it’s starting to turn into something real for me today I think we can do and it’s teaching me about that whole process and I like the fact that to really dig into it, to look at the endpoint and then to just hold off on the tool selection as long as you can are the big things.
I give us a thumbs up for our first few weeks of playing with this.
Tom Mighell: We’re not failing. I would disagree with that. Let’s keep on keeping on and see what happens and we’ll be back to talk about capture part two in an upcoming episode. But for right now, let’s take a quick break for a message from our sponsors.
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Tom Mighell: And now, let’s get back to The Kennedy-Mighell Report. I’m Tom Mighell.
Dennis Kennedy: And I’m Dennis Kennedy. We love to get questions from you, our listeners in our voicemail line, that’s 720-441-6820. We don’t have an audience question today, but I’ve been hearing a lot over the past year and actually over the past few weeks as well that all their lawyers seem to believe that they are way better at computer security than young lawyers. To me, that’s a bold statement. I thought it’d be good for Tom and I to kind of bat that topic around. Tom, to me, the evidence on older lawyers, computer security skills and acumen has been pretty clear for me for many years. Are you a buyer or a seller on this claim that they are now making?
Tom Mighell: When you say they, you sound like a politician saying they say this and they say that and I will welcome your evidence on this during your rebuttal part of this because frankly, I’ve not heard that before. I’ve not heard it in a way that it’s saying everybody’s saying this sort of thing, so I went did some research. There is an article on law technology today and it turns out that that one article references a single study by a cybersecurity firm NTT where it basically takes all of its information on this article and while the results of that survey did indeed find that people and it’s hard to say old versus young because they found that people in the 30 to 60 age range exhibit more cybersecurity good practice. I think this is mostly because they’ve had more time in the workplace to acquire the proper cybersecurity skills.
I think what may be surprising is it doesn’t matter that the people under 30 are digital natives, they were born to it. They just haven’t spent enough time in the workplace to understand all the risks. It’s the same that we’ve said before with young lawyers and legal technology in general, they know how to navigate around a computer but they don’t know how to apply a style in Word. I think the same applies for cybersecurity.
What’s interesting about this survey, there were three interesting things that I thought were kind of interesting that I’d like to bring out. One, first, people under 30 have very different expectations about cybersecurity than people over the age of 30. It’s all about productivity and speed. One of the interesting findings from the survey is that 39% of the people under 30 would actually pay a ransom to a cybercriminal so they could get on with their work rather than wait while it’s being held hostage to try and get it back for them. Forty percent of the people would rather pay money just so they could keep working.
Second thing that I found interesting, those under 30 who work in the business and professional services areas tend to adopt the most cybersecurity good practice scoring above the average for all of their sectors, which actually speaks well for young lawyers.
But the other last interesting thing was that more people under 30 than over 30 believe that cybersecurity is solely an IT issue and has no relevance to people in other departments, which is kind of distressing to me because as we’ve talked before with herd immunity and the fact that cybersecurity should be everybody’s business, I guess my answer to your question is yes, older people are better at cybersecurity but I think that there are some interesting reasons for it that we really haven’t considered.
Dennis, what is your take?
Dennis Kennedy: And of course, you know I’m saying like I look at the history. I just looked at the latest ABA Tech survey results on cybersecurity on cloud applications and you’ve got to be kidding me.
Tom Mighell: But nobody’s good on that.
Dennis Kennedy: — convince me after the last 30 years or so of using technology that their lawyers are any good at this. I think this is another place where I see all their lawyers saying these digital natives are supposed to be so good but they don’t know how to do these things. I go like, “They’ve kind of moved on from where you are,” and I think they’re a lot better about risk management, they’re a lot better about avoiding unsafe places like the lawyers move out of places that are dangerous, well just about the time the older lawyers are moving into it. It is especially social media, Facebook, some of those things.
And then also, I think their approach to privacy is a bit different. So they’re making their own set of risk management choices that to me are kind of interesting and as you said, they’re kind of practical. It’s like, okay. So given what we have here, do I do this, I think they’re solid in understanding how to use passwords and to factor and stuff like that and they learn this stuff super quickly, that’s what I see with my students when we talk about cybersecurity.
I think it’s one of those things where you have — when I see an article or articles or somebody saying, these young digital natives, they really aren’t that good at this stuff. We’re a lot better. I’m like, “I don’t see it.” I think it’s an interesting topic and we’ll see more of this as just the generational split happens, I suppose. But it’s an interesting thing for me to see people who historically have been just terrible at security pointing their fingers at somebody else.
Now it’s time for our parting shots at one tip, website or observation that you can use the second this podcast ends. Tomi, take it away.
Tom Mighell: Two quick tips from me. The first one is if you have been wanting to be better about your personal productivity but are not sure that there’s a bunch of different methods that are out there for being productive you’re not sure which one is best for you, my favorite task manager Todoist has a short quiz on productivity methods. You answer a few questions about kind of what your style is, what you prefer and it will give you the example of the productivity method that it recommends for you to use. I’m not sure I totally agreed with what it recommended for me but it was an interesting exercise to go through so I’ll put a link to that in the show notes.
Then finally, something that seems ready-made for me, LinkedIn has announced the ability to do voice recordings for your profile where now you can record the pronunciation of your name so that people can get it right and I thought this is the Holy Grail, this is all I need so that people will finally know that my name is pronounced “mile” and not “Miguel.” Who am I kidding? It’s not going to make a difference but at least give everybody enough opportunity to pronounce it correctly and I think it’s great that LinkedIn has offered this.
Dennis Kennedy: Yes, couple things I’ve seen developments along those lines. I think that is super helpful especially as we, being in a global organization, I was that just learning how to get somebody’s name right is really a big deal and anything that can help you is great.
I just have one thing and so as we kind of work our way through the pandemic and have a lot of things shut down especially court systems, things on limited things, people wonder what is it that the courts are doing? How are judges making themselves available? How our hearings handled? How are these things going on is what’s going on out there? I’m fortunate to move to Michigan because I think the Michigan courts are doing some super cool things and I’ve learned that they’ve done over 45,000 Zoom hearings for example that they’ve had a really important, I guess is the right word, but a controversial type of hearing. I can’t remember if it was the Court of Appeals or Supreme Court, they got 48,000 views. Imagine 48,000 people, lawyers or anybody in a courtroom to view arguments. So it’s kind of cool what’s happening.
They have a lot of stuff very easily available to see including like all of their virtual courts in a directory and you can just find it at the Michigan courts online page which is courts.michigan.gov and just kind of explore what’s going there and it’ll give you an idea of how people are responding to the current crisis and what they’re pointing to as moving us forward in the future because one of the things they’re finding is that to create the simple ability for people not to take off, work and still make a court appearance by Zoom is a huge benefit to everybody.
Tom Mighell: And so that wraps it up for this edition of The Kennedy-Mighell Report. Thanks for joining us on the podcast. You can find share notes for this episode on the Legal Talk Network’s page for this podcast.
If you like what you hear, please subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or on the Legal Talk Network site where you can find archives of all of our previous podcasts along with transcripts. If you’d like to get in touch with us, remember you can reach out to us on LinkedIn or remember, we love to get questions for our B segment. The number there again is 720-441-6820. So until the next podcast, I’m tom Mighell.
Dennis Kennedy: And I’m Dennis Kennedy, and you’ve been listening to The Kennedy-Mighell Report, a podcast on legal technology with an Internet focus. If you like what you heard today, please rate us in Apple Podcast and we’ll see you next time for another episode of The Kennedy-Mighell Report on the Legal Talk Network.
Outro: Thanks for listening to The Kennedy-Mighell Report. Check out Dennis and Tom’s book, The Lawyer’s Guide to Collaboration Tools and Technologies: Smart Ways to Work Together from ABA BOOKS or Amazon and join us every other week for another edition of The Kennedy-Mighell Report only on the Legal Talk Network.