Dennis and Tom go to ABA TECHSHOW 2015

Episode Notes

Transcript

Kennedy-Mighell Report: Dennis and Tom go to ABA TECHSHOW 2015 – 4/26/2015

Advertiser: Got the world turning as fast as it can? Hear how technology can help – legally speaking. With two of the top legal technology experts, authors, and lawyers: Dennis Kennedy and Tom Mighell. Welcome to the Kennedy-Mighell report, here on the Legal Talk Network.

Dennis Kennedy: And welcome to episode 151 of the Kennedy-Mighell Report. I’m Dennis Kennedy in St. Louis.

Tom Mighell: And I’m Tom Mighell in Dallas.

Dennis Kennedy: In our last episode we discussed how the human element continues to play an important role in legal technology and why some people wonder if lawyers in the legal profession can successfully adapt to new technologies. In this episode we take another perspective on the future and share our thoughts on the just completed ABA Techshow 2015. Tom, what’s on our agenda for this episode?

Tom Mighell: Well, Dennis, in this episode of the Kennedy-Mighell Report, we’ll be talking about our recent visit to ABA Techshow 2015. In our second segment, we’ll puzzle over the reluctance of lawyers to pay anything, and I mean anything for apps. And as usual, we’ll finish up with our parting shots, that one tip, website or observation that you can use the second that this podcast is over. But first, let’s talk about ABA Techshow 2015. I think I speak for both of us when I say that ABA Techshow is one of our favorite times of the year. Lots of great education about technology, but I think more important, lots of opportunities to connect and talk to other people who are as passionate about using technology as we are. Dennis, you’ve had a few days to reflect; we just got back from the conference a few days ago. What are your reactions to this year’s Techshow?

Dennis Kennedy: I thought it was a great show this year, I thought it was really fun. I met tons of people, learned some new things, had a wide variety of experiences. And it reminded me, Tom, because we both were talking at different times about how people think it’s all about tech, tech, tech and the technologies thing, but it’s really the way that technology connects people and it’s the experiences that we have with people that really make this a great show. So many elements of Techshow work so well at helping people get to know each other. And as you say, it connects you up with people who are as interested in technology as we are.

Tom Mighell: It’s funny you say that because I was interested to see some blog posts that came out after the show from people who I would say have traditionally viewed Techshow from afar – from Twitter, probably, I guess is the best way to put it – they’ve been critical about the show. I think you get a very skewed view of what Techshow is like, or really any conference, but let’s use Techshow as the example, what Techshow is like. You get a skewed view when people are posting about it on social media. And this year, you would certainly get a skewed view considering the number of selfie pictures that were posted throughout the conference. But what was interesting was that some of those people who have watched it traditionally from ways off, came to the show this year. They had a good time, they discovered what you and I and everyone who has been coming to Techshow has really known forever, which is the Techshow is really about relationships. It’s about connecting with others, it’s about learning from other people, and you really can’t get a good idea until you’re there with the people and talking with them and getting to know them and I think I agree with you. I think this is one of the best Techshows that I’ve been to in terms of the energy and the friendliness and the number of people that were there. And I think there are certainly still some things that stay the same from year to year. The great education, the technology education is always outstanding. We always have lots of interesting vendors to see. So there are a lot of things that still are the same year after year, but I think the energy seemed to me to be a little bit higher this year and a little bit more fun than it has in the past years.

Dennis Kennedy: Yeah, it seemed like there were more people, a lot of smiling people. People just really seemed like they liked it and felt that they learned a lot, so I got a lot of great feedback. As you know, Tom, I like to spend a lot of time at the conference concierge desk – which is one of the great innovations at Techshow – and it’s just a great way to meet people as they’re walking through and to catch up with different speakers, attendees and that. Reflecting back on the conference – and I was talking to some people today at work – I just did a lot of things while I was there. As I sort of tipped it off to people, I got to Chicago, went to the art institute, had a great time there. I was a guest on a podcast, I was a panelist on the Appathon, I spoke at 3 sessions on panels, and I guest hosted a podcast. I went to a meetup on legaltech in Chicago. We had breakfast, you and I, and all the dinners; it was just a jam-packed time. I picked up quite a few things, spent a lot of time on the exhibit floor. So Tom, I know you had some work to do because you were telling me about that, but it seems like it was a real whirlwind this year.

Tom Mighell: So I don’t notice, and I’m going to call you out on this before I give an answer to that, which is I didn’t really hear any of your description out of all the stuff you did that you actually went to any sessions. I know you and I went to part of a session, but I’d have to say that I was so busy I didn’t actually make it to sessions, which I expect is not the traditional Techshow experience. People are obviously there for the education, but did you make it to any sessions?

Dennis Kennedy: Yeah, I went to some excellent sessions that I was speaking at, so I definitely made those. But I went to a couple of sessions. It is an odd conference for me these days because some of the things I’m really interested in wouldn’t necessarily be covered in the sessions. And there were a couple of sessions I was hopeful going into but it was just sort of a little bit too basic for the things we were interested in. In that case it just made sense for me to catch up with the presenter on that session, which is was able to do on Saturday and ask some of the questions I had and get some insight. So it’s kind of an odd thing for me when it comes to sessions. It’s really hard to pick them and they’re not necessarily geared to exactly what I’m interested in. So I did a little bit but not as much in terms of sessions as I at least initially put on my schedule. But when you get the chance to talk to people you don’t see for a long time, and like I said, the other speakers are experts, you can learn a lot by taking advantage of using that time to just network with people and talk to people rather than sit in a session and watch a presentation.

Tom Mighell: I was sort of the same time, like you said. I had to spend some time actually doing some work for my job that took me away from having fun at the conference. But I think what that goes to show you is that there’s a lot of things that you can get out of a show like Techshow. Even though going to the sessions is what you arguably pay for and that’s where you get the most valuable, you can still get a ton of value out of it by not going to a lot of sessions. So I think it just depends on what you want to make out of it. As far as what I did at Techshow, like you, I spoke at a couple of sessions. You and I spoke together with some other folks on the state of legal technology presentation that we started doing last year, and I thought that went really well. Again, this year we had a great crowd for that. I got to talk to a lot of people who are interested in writing books for the law practice division of the American Bar Association and that was nice. We told them about how to become an author for law practice books. I spent a lot of time at the concierge; I enjoy connecting with people, although the time that I spent there tends to be the time where everybody’s just asking two questions which is where are the classes and where’s registration. So I didn’t get a lot of unique or interesting things to talk about, but I had a great time. Let’s talk in general, were there things that you particularly liked about Techshow, things that you want to call out as some of your favorite things?

Dennis Kennedy: Well, I really like the beer and bloggers thing; Kevin O’Keefe of LexBlog, Allen Pusey of ABA Journal do this every year on Friday evening. That was really fun so you get a bunch of bloggers and it’s a chance to meet people whose blogs you’ve read. So there’s a lot of new people there, old friends as well. Tom and I, we certainly ran into some old friends at that, people I didn’t expect such as Fred Faulkner from back in our old days at the law practice management section. So that was great, and then I think that it’s just the hallway stuff. To me it’s when you get the chance to just sit down and talk to people. And this, to me, is one of the real benefits of being a speaker at Techshow is you just walk into the speaker-ready room and there’s a couple people there and you sit around and talk for a while and sometimes you run into some attendees who ask you some questions. I think after Elsa and I did our LinkedIn session, we were talking to people for a good half hour or 45 minutes afterwards; just hanging out, asking questions, finding out about what people were interested in. So that to me is always the stuff I like and I also liked the chance – even though it wasn’t a part of Techshow – there was a legal tech meetup that Chicago group put together and there were a lot of big names in some of the new developments in technology and law who were in that session; and that was fun to go to a different venue with a different group. Some overlap, and that was fun; see a different set of short presentations and get to talk to some people.

Tom Mighell: One of the sessions that I did get to was the plenary session on Saturday morning, which is always interesting to see how many people can drag themselves out at 9 in the morning after a Friday night of having a good time. But I will say that that was an interesting Plenary for me. Casey Flaherty, formerly of KIA, Andy Perlman from Suffolk Law School in Boston talked about competence and technology knowledge. And I really enjoyed it primarily because it’s a topic that you and I have talked about a lot on this podcast in the past few years about whether or not lawyers should be required to know how to use the technology that they’re using in service of their clients. And what I like about what Casey and Andy are doing these days is they’re actually acknowledging and bringing this to the forefront in a way that it was kind of an eye opener of people saying how bad lawyers are at technology and why it’s important that they get better in order to provide better service to their clients. So that was nice to see that people are finally talking about a topic like that. What about new products, Dennis? I will tell you that there were two products that I’m particularly interesting in, one from an iPad standpoint, one from I guess a standpoint that you and I may have some interest in. I’ve had a tool that I’m looking forward to the most, it actually hasn’t come out yet but it was announced at Techshow and it’s from our friends at RESolutions who make the great TrialPad and Transcript Pad apps. They’re doing a new app called Doc Review Pad that allows you to load and review and annotate large numbers of documents on your iPad, which I think they’re finding the sweet spot for solo and small firm lawyers who may not have a huge volume of information, not enough to hire a major document vendor to process and load that into one of their review platforms, but they want to be able to get something onto their iPad. So I think that’s a nice space for them to be in, given that the rest of their tools are evidence presentation and deposition management. So I like that tool and then I think that you and I both are impressed by the folks at Legaler; they’re based in Australia but they’re going to be spending most of their time focusing on the US market. Do you want to tell a little bit about what they do? Because I know you and I are interesting in learning a little bit about that platform.

Dennis Kennedy: I think it’s a communication platform that will allow people to do video, audio, texting, all in one place, the ability to archive it. There’s a tool called Slack and they described this to me as Slack for lawyers; so there’s security and other things built into it. But I think it has a lot of potential as a sort of lightweight communications platform that could allow you to do a lot of things. And I think as we start to say how are lawyers going to serve people and communicate with people who like to use audio, they like to use Skype, they like to use FaceTime and other things. So what would be the equivalent thing that you could use for clients or to collaborate with other lawyers? And this one is pretty interesting to me because I was looking for a way that maybe we could collaborate on some things and maybe even do a private group of people. Some of our friends who do a lot of speaking are experts on legal technology as a way that we can quickly ask questions of each other and share thoughts and ideas. So I’ve always been intrigued by things like that. And as I told them, it seems to me that over the years, some of the coolest legal technology applications have come out of Australia, for whatever reason. And so this is another one that seemed to have a lot of potential, I mean it’s new, of course. There’s another new one called Zola, which is a really well-designed and well-crafted and well-thought out cloud-based case management app which is, like I said, well-designed and just focused on the main things that a lawyer would need. It’s one of those things that if you were starting up your own practice, especially if you left the firm, it just seemed like it would give you most of everything that you ever wanted without being too much. And then the other thing that really interested me was Handshake, which is basically something that works with SharePoint to really organize the information that a lawyer has. We talked about having that personal dashboard, this leads to that; it also does some really cool things on expertise location. So it takes the information in your system like what documents you’ve worked on, what clients you billed, what clients you’re responsible for, the matter you worked on, and then allows people to surface the experts on a given topic. It’s a really cool application, especially in the larger law firms could be something to be really helpful. Also, Tom, I think this is a time where there’s all sorts of new products and people thinking about new apps and new approaches to both providing legal services and applications for lawyers and we highlight it at Techshow – well Adriana Linares really highlighted it at Techshow – with the Appathon that launched the night before Techshow. So, Tom, could you tell us about the Appathon and your reaction to it?

Tom Mighell: Well I will say I’m going to turn this back over to you because you were actually on the panel for the Appathon, so I think you have a far different perspective than I do. But this Appathon was the first that ABA’s Legal Technology Resource Center decided to put on on the night before Techshow, have something a little bit different. It was designed to track or follow the Hackathons that we’ve been seeing at other places. But as Adriana Linares indicated when she opened it, she said the word “hack” has a negative connotation so they’re calling it an Appathon.And it was designed to bring together teams from different law school across the country who were engaged in developing apps that would help consumers, that would help lawyers provide better service to their clients. And there were a lot of very interesting tools that were out there. Had some Google Hangouts where we got to talk to the actual people who were creating these apps and I thought it was a really interesting and innovative discussion. Dennis, you were actually part of it, you were part of the discussion. Tell us more about what it was from your perspective?

Dennis Kennedy: I would describe it as a sort of quazeye shark tank type of approach. And so other people from MIT, University of Brooklyn, University of Missouri Kansas City, and so you had student groups who were already working on apps. And so there were 2 minute videos on what they were doing with the idea that the panelists and the audience could give them feedback, both at the event and then on ongoing or later basis if they wanted. And so it was really fun because people had these ideas then we had a really interesting panel. And so sometimes, you could be a little critical, but I think we all tried to come up with suggestions to help people. And you saw some commonality in what people were trying to do and some really interesting potential. If people expand their approach and I think understand the audience better, especially, but some really cool ideas out there. I think it’s this sort of thing where you say if technology is going to change the legal profession and the legal business, it’s sort of ground up things that start from the ground up, applications of new technologies, and the sense of apps is really interesting rather than to try to create these gigantic things to cover everything about law. So I was pretty excited, it was really fun to be part of the panel on this one.

Tom Mighell: I agree, I think as we become more of an app society and the fact that apps are more lightweight, designed to do one thing. And the fact that everybody’s on their phone or on a mobile device all the time, I really think that’s where these types of things are going. I hope we’re able to continue it next year. I know it’s probably not practical for the purposes of Techshow, but I’d love to see more people in person, I think it makes sense to have it in the hangout feature and that’s also a cool use of the technology, but I’d almost like to see them together to compete in a room. And maybe that’s just an argument for us trying to organize something on a broader scale at some other venue other than Techshow. So as part of an outline that we’ve developed for this, one of the questions that you had on here was do shows like Techshow still matter, and I’m going to answer the question before I toss it back to you which is I sort of think that what we’ve been talking about the last 20 minutes that it shows that shows like this still matter. I haven’t really come up with a reason why we wouldn’t think about that in any other terms, but that shows like this are incredibly important for a number of different reasons. Not the least of which is teaching lawyers about legal technology. There are just so many benefits about conferences like this that I think are more relevant to a certain extent than they ever have been. Dennis, was that your point when you put this in the outline or did you have a certain, slightly different take on it?

Dennis Kennedy: I think that it’s important to raise the question all the time. I was having a conversation, maybe I had a couple conversations on this point. But I noticed that sessions weren’t recorded and they weren’t videotaped, and I had forgotten to set the recording for our LinkedIn session, so Elsa and I were also talking about that. When you do these things, it’s nice to preserve them and not just have a record but there’s things you can cut up and reuse and repurpose in different ways. So anyway, different people got to talking about that and somebody said why not do this as a virtual conference? There’s the live show and there’s  virtual thing, and people have always struggled with that notion because they think that if you do that, you cannibalize the live attendance. I don’t actually agree with that but I understand where people are coming from on that. But I’ve always wondered could you do, by routinely videoing it,  even if you delayed it, you could also do some live streaming. There’s a great audience around the world of people who really are interested in this material and to learn about it who can’t come to Chicago. So people are talking about think of the things you could do with that with a virtual exhibit floor with things like that, and I’m wondering if we’re getting closer to the time where there’s some real potential with that. If I look to next year, I wouldn’t say I want to do that next year and next year being a 30th anniversary of Techshow, I really want to go to that show. There’s always this running gag where I always wonder if this is going to be the last year I speak at Techshow or go to Techshow, but next year I really want to go to Techshow and I really want to speak at it because it’s the 30th anniversary, which probably means I’ll get my year of rest next year as these things turn out, but I’m definitely going. But I’m really intrigued by what we might do to reach out to people geographically and otherwise who can’t attend in person and to use social media video, the audio platforms and some of the ideas like the Legaler service that we were talking about to create new communities that wouldn’t exist otherwise so Techshow could become the magnet that pulls those people together. So that was partly behind my question.

Tom Mighell: And I agree, I know that LegalTech New York has done this for a number of years where they recorded live or they streamed – maybe not video, but at least the audio – of a lot of presentations so that you could hear what was going on. And I think that makes a lot of sense, given some of the platforms you’re talking about and the new technologies. I think that there’s a lot of opportunities to be able to be creative in how we bring this. I think the challenge of a show like Techshow and making it more interactive and more virtual for people who can’t make it is I think you have to pick and choose what you share with the rest of the world. Because the show is so massive, there’s 6 tracks of information going on simultaneously, and trying to capture all of it and displaying all of it to the rest of the world is probably fairly expensive, also can get fairly noisy pretty quickly. And so I think that choosing either the right sessions or the right tracks, certainly making the KeyNote and some of the plenary sessions available for people to watch would make a lot of sense. But I would see that as the next natural extension of Techshow is making more use of trying to capture those external audiences. Maybe by doing that, we avoid people who take a skeptical look at Techshow in places like Twitter because they just can’t see what it’s like. Maybe this would give them an opportunity to see what a show like this is like.

Dennis Kennedy: When I first started going to Techshow and speaking at Techshow, one of the cool things was that as an attendee, you could buy the cassette tape of any session that you wanted, and if you’re a speaker, you got a free cassette tape of the recording of your session. So I think that not all these things work in this way because some sessions are more like demos, but there were certain sessions that maybe I couldn’t get to and I wasn’t sure exactly how they were going to be discussed or if there was a conflict or something. It would be cool to have some of this stuff available as podcasts and there are a lot of conferences that do that.

Tom Mighell: I think that’s a good place to end. Before we move onto our next segment, let’s take a quick break for a message from our sponsor.

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Tom Mighell: And now let’s get back to the Kennedy-Mighell Report. I’m Tom Mighell.

Dennis Kennedy: And I’m Dennis Kennedy. At Techshow, I noticed that there were a few things that set Tom off and made me wonder if it was time for a return of the angry Tom segment we used to do in this podcast. First and foremost of the Tom irritance that he told me about was the way that some lawyers totally freaked out about having to pay as much as $2.99 for a mobile app. I actually saw some people make faces when somebody said that a great app was currently on sale for 99 cents. Tom, have we lost all sense of reason about what apps should cost?

Tom Mighell: Well first of all, I have to contest the fact that it wasn’t called the angry Tom segment that we used to do, it was called a rant. And that doesn’t imply anger, I’m calm now, I feel good about it. With that said, there was some interesting discussions that we had at Techshow about apps and the cost of apps, and it really started when I mention an app onstage for the iPad and I said it was free. And I was approached by at least 3 people after the session who went to go download it and discovered that the app was $2.99. And there was a little bit of the how dare you mislead me to think that this was a free app in it. And one person actually said I really wish there was a trial version of this app so I wouldn’t have to spend the $2.99. And I take the position that if an app is good, you should be willing to pay the money to get it. And I know that I walk on interesting ground here, Dennis, because I know that you’re a fan of the free app, but at the same time, I presented with somebody else during the 60 iOS apps in 60 minutes where somebody basically believes that if you get a free app, you’re compromising quality, and the only way to guarantee quality is to actually pay for the app. And we’ve also had other conversations about how some of the apps we love a lot, like TrialPad, like Transcript Pad, are charging far more than what we would expect for an app at $89 and $129. But at the same time, I don’t know that we would blink once if we were just thinking about that as being computer software that it was a program for our computer like buying Quicken or something like that. I think that’s a perfectly reasonable price and I think that the app economy has gotten us to a point where we have and expectation and I’m fully willing to blame Apple for this because they like to drive down the prices of things. And there was a time when I said that if the app is more than $9.99, it’s probably something that you want to take a look at buying. But I think that that mentality that these apps are cheaper primarily because they are less full functioning than apps that you would put on a computer but not necessarily, that has led us to the mentality that we really shouldn’t have to pay a lot for the apps that we have. I think it’s fascinating, it fascinates me that we have gotten so quickly to this point in time where people are actually complaining about  99 cents or $2.99 and I kind of wish they’d get over it and just buy the apps because they’re really good apps. And I think that if the price is right – and I can’t imagine that $2.99 price is not right – then people ought to take advantage of that. Am I totally off base with my rant, Dennis?

Dennis Kennedy: No, I don’t think so. I like free apps, no secret about it, but I also have bought some of the most expensive apps that are available and they’re really significant for me, Omnifocus is the classic example, worth every penny I paid for it; it made a huge change in the way I do things. So I bought apps, I bought premium versions of apps where the free version is perfectly adequate, just because I like the apps and I want to figure out a way to pay the people who created them. So I think that approach has changed. I think early on you didn’t know exactly what you were getting with apps and apps gone free just makes it easy. When somebody offers you a paid app for free, it’s hard to say not to it. But I’m sort of slimming down to apps that I use and I’m more willing to pay for quality and to reward the people who build that. And that said, I just think that the comparison to what you might pay for computer software for something you would use – we were talking about TrialPad, Tom, and this to me is a classic example where you would say the alternatives are quite expensive and people say this does exactly what I want, it’s really easy to use; if I buy the other, more expensive software program, the iPad app for it isn’t as good, this is all easy to use. Everything you would hope for but people would say no, $89, $99, that’s so much, that’s so crazy, because it’s like we don’t know how to put a value on things that make our lives easier and help us do things better. So we’re at a funny place on apps but I just look at it in terms of saying somebody’s worked really hard to build an app overtime and there’s new versions of it and it keeps improving and you like it. $2.99 is not much to say hey, thanks for doing a nice thing for me.

Tom Mighell: I think the other thing to keep in mind is that the developers need to find a way to monetize and make a living from their apps and I think that certainly it would be very difficult to justify having an app like TrialPad that where in the courtroom presenting evidence and all of a sudden it gets interrupted and says your trial will resume in 3 minutes and 29 seconds, let’s go through a couple of commercials first while we pay for the price of the app. So I think that that’s certainly something that can happen and that’s why charging for the app makes a lot of sense. But by the same token, you’re going to get a lot of free apps out there because they’re components of another service. Obviously Facebook and LinkedIn and all of your social media apps are free and there are a lot of really good free apps that are companions to other services. Not to say that free apps aren’t good, there are a lot of really good free apps, but I will say that I tend to get more out of the apps that I pay for. Even if it’s only 99 cents to remove some ads from something, I tend to value those apps a lot more than the apps that I get that are free.

Dennis Kennedy: And ultimately, it’s 99 cents, I mean, come on. So now it’s time for that one tip, website or observation that you could use the second this podcast ends. Tom, take it away.

Tom Mighell: So I’ve become a fan of Product Hunt, lately. Product Hunt is a site that looks at different types of apps and tools every day. They have a featured category, they’ll list a whole bunch of them. Just recently they had a category of live streaming apps, apps that you can use to livestream. Meerkat, or Periscope that I talked about in the last podcast, and they provide them in a list and you upvote or downvote them based on whether you think they’re good or bad tools and then they exist in a directory for you to go look at. I guarantee you, I always find a tool or a site that I did not know existed out there that looks at these areas or these topics in a different way. So I like it, it comes to me via the old-fashioned method of email once a day. It’s ProductHunt.com.

Dennis Kennedy: And mine is something called OfficeSway.com and this is a beta for Microsoft of something new. So I was talking to our friend Ben Shore and he was about to do his presentation of 60 Windows mobile apps in 60 minutes and he was going to debut this beta app called Sway to do his presentation with. So he showed me how it worked and it was great and I suspect that the 8 attendees for his session also thought it was great. So it went out to a small audience but this is kind of cool, it’s a new approach to presenting information and he could use it as a presentation, but it does some of those things that I think can be a little tricky in Powerpoint. So proportioning images, doing different types of information, it sort of rolls things on a strip that goes downward is the sense that you have; it will help you select colors and match them. And so it does a number of things and you can share some of the stuff so it’s a really interesting platform that Ben just showed me a little bit and then I looked on the website as well. It’s definitely in beta and I don’t know when it’s going to be released, maybe 6 months or so, but Sway.com. Definitely worth a look as something that might point to the way that we display information in the future and get beyond the whole Powerpoint slide concept to something that might present information in a much easier way for people to understand.

Tom Mighell: I will say that Microsoft has been coming up with a lot of very interesting smaller tools lately that we’re starting to see lately like Sway and like some others that I’ve seen lately are going to be very interesting to see over the next coming months and years. So that wraps it up for this edition of the Kennedy-Mighell Report. Thanks for joining us on the podcast; information on how to get in touch with us, as well as links to all the topics we discussed today, is available on our show notes blog at TKMReport.com. If you like what you hear, please subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or on the Legal Talk Network site where you can find archives to all of our previous podcasts. If you’d like to get in touch with us, please email us at [email protected] or send us a tweet. I’m @TomMighell and Dennis is @DennisKennedy. So until the next podcast, I am Tom Mighell.

Dennis Kennedy: And I’m Dennis Kennedy and you’ve been listening to the Kennedy-Mighell Report, a podcast on legal technology with an internet focus. Help us out by telling a couple of your friends and colleagues about this podcast.
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