Physical Security and Workplace Violence

Episode Notes

Transcript

The Florida Bar Podcast

Physical Security and Workplace Violence

03/27/2018

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Intro: Welcome to The Florida Bar Podcast, where we highlight the latest trends in law office and law practice management to help you run your law firm, brought to you by The Florida Bar’s Practice Resource Institute. You are listening to Legal Talk Network.

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Christine Bilbrey: Hello, and welcome to The Florida Bar Podcast brought to you by The Practice Resource Institute on Legal Talk Network. We are so glad you are joining us. This is Christine Bilbrey. I am the Senior Practice Management Advisor at PRI and one of the hosts for today’s show, which is being recorded from our offices in Tallahassee, Florida.

Karla Eckardt: Hello. I am Karla Eckardt, I am a Practice Management Advisor at The Florida Bar’s Practice Resource Institute and a co-host of today’s podcast.

Our goal at PRI is to assist Florida attorneys with running the business side of their law practices. We will be focusing on a different topic each month and we will carry the theme through our newsletter and website with related tech tips and articles.

Christine Bilbrey: So, this month at PRI our topic is Physical Security and Workplace Violence. And today, we will be speaking with Deputy Dean Crump of the Leon County Sheriff’s Office. Deputy Crump has been with the Leon County Sheriff’s Office for over 19 years during which time he has served on road patrol as a School Resource Deputy and on the criminal investigations and community relations units.

Welcome to the show, Deputy Crump.

Deputy M. Dean Crump: Thank you. Glad to be here.

Christine Bilbrey: So, Deputy Crump, please tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, your background, and more specifically, about your agency’s crime prevention programs?

Deputy M. Dean Crump: Well, as you said I have got 19 years that I’ve spent here at Leon County Sheriff’s Office, my entire law enforcement career has been here with Leon County, during that time as state been on road patrol, spent my first six years there, then another seven years in the School Resource Deputy Unit where I was stationed at several different schools through that tenure, and then I spent a small amount of time in investigations and wound up over here now in our Crime Prevention Unit which has just recently been kind of rebranded if you will to our Community Relations Unit.

Karla Eckardt: Great. So, most of our listeners are lawyers or legal administrators that are charged with management and administration of their law practices; however, the small firms may not necessarily have the time or training resources that are available to larger organizations and preparing safety and security policies or other preventive programs may be outside their wheelhouse.

So, the purpose of having you on the podcast today is to learn and raise awareness about workplace violence and to also encourage our listeners to utilize the resources and services that agencies, such as yours, provide for businesses in their communities.

So, I wanted to start with workplace violence. In recent years, months, and even I think as recently as yesterday in Maryland, active shooter incidents have dominated national headlines, so when people think about workplace violence some of them may automatically jump to active shooter. And we will talk about that a little later, but I wanted to talk about other forms of workplace violence that maybe are more commonly encountered by employers.

So, in your training how do you define or maybe explain workplace violence to participants or members of the community?

Deputy M. Dean Crump: Well, one of the first things that we talk about in some of the training and we start off actually part of our training we have messed our presentation of avoiding workplace violence along with active shooter, not to say that it’s just workplace violence that causes an active shooter to engage in that type of emergency situation, in that tragic situation, but what we have done is, is that we talk about it in reference to the definition as we see it is that it’s any act an employee that creates a hostile work environment and negatively affects the employees either physically or psychologically, and that’s one of the things that we key on.

We also talk about how the training is a huge and vital important key because of the fact that when situations become violent, it’s not that just people typically just all of a sudden snap but rather that it’s been on a continuum. It’s often beginning with minor harassing behavior, possibly becoming even increasingly threatening to a point of violence itself. There are always signs that lead up to violent behavior and having a violent incident especially when you start talking about in the workplace.

What we do in reference to the training is we also talk about the different signs. We have caution signs that go into like a yellow flag, meaning caution, and then we go into red flags which we refer to as our warning signs. All of these build into what we refer to as possible triggers. The trigger is that point where what is it the incident that triggers that person to kind of go over that edge. And that’s one of the things that we concentrate on before we even really go into an active shooter, so because any one of these triggers can go into even physical altercations, they are at an office setting, work setting, it could either be in a warehouse, it could be in a regular office placement. These are the type of things that we talk about.

(00:05:23)

Christine Bilbrey: And is workplace violence limited to only violence against fellow co-workers?

Deputy M. Dean Crump: Well, not necessarily, there’s always the type that you may have a client or you could have someone that comes into your office that may be disruptive because of the fact of way that they felt they were dealt with or rather that someone did not adhere to the problems that they had, that they didn’t feel that they were adequately serviced and this could have led to different problems that they have encountered what they feel because of that, meaning something may have happened to them personally, it could affect even finances to where it caused personal problems. So then they retaliate by coming back to that entity with the situation that we may be referring to here with several attorneys’ locations of course.

Somebody’s not always going to be the happiest, and in these cases, especially for an attorney, they may come back into the practice and they may lash out at that attorney or that or some of the employees there, feeling that it’s their fault whatever has come down upon, and that could be a trigger for them even though they are not an employee. So, yes, in those cases it’s not just employee, but it’s how it also affects employees.

Christine Bilbrey: And when the police are called out, I think this happens probably more often than people are aware of. What are the most common types of violence that you are called out to deal with? What’s happening in those situations?

Deputy M. Dean Crump: Well, most of the time it starts and we try to always say, call us even if it’s just verbal. It’s like call us — don’t try to sit there and keep trying to deal with it because, well, we don’t want law enforcement showing up at our place of business.

The reason for that is, is because what happens is, is that if it does go to the next level and then somebody is trying to call us, it’s really too late at that point. If we show up and it’s just been a verbal communication, a verbal problem, a lot of times that we can get that person to step out, leave the business and possibly calm things down before it has reached a level to where we actually need to take an action against that person.

Usually we may refer to anything as far as in civil, taking it to a civil level, if they feel like that it’s something that they need to seek court, justice by we try to give them options in reference to what we are talking about, we don’t go further than that. We just say, hey, if you are unhappy, there’s always another way to deal with it rather than coming here and creating a scene. But, eventually, if it’s not dealt with then that’s when it can lead into just a higher more volatile situation, and that’s what we are trying to avoid.

Christine Bilbrey: And you mentioned before that you have what you call yellow flags or caution signs that develop, and I think that when this happens in your own workplace you are surprised by it but the signs have been there. What are some of the specific things that are going on that people may not realize are yellow flags for a potential violence situation down the road?

Deputy M. Dean Crump: Well, sure, we are talking about basically changes in a person’s personality or their behavior in itself where sometimes you may have if this person is safe, it’s a person that works with you, if it’s a co-worker or like we said, even if it’s somebody that’s not, but if it’s a client where you have dealt with them they may all of a sudden start talking about irrational beliefs or ideas maybe they start forming parts of paranoia, everybody’s out to kind of get me.

I try to always speak of the fact of it’s not just one of these things but it’s several of these cautionary things tied together, it’s that they are woven together so it’s not just one but when you start having one and then two and then three, and three or four of these signs are becoming apparent; that’s when it’s really key that you start taking it to another level, you start talking to a supervisor, you start talking to an owner, a boss, get them involved on what you are seeing so that more people in the office also can verify these things and steps could possibly be taken before it reaches a critical stage.

Like we said, when we talk about the warning flags, but when we are talking caution, you may also see as far as an employee changes in their productivity levels, you can also see even fits of depression that may set in.

Again, many times I speak about is that if we are working eight hours a day with a person five days a week, that’s a lot of time, but it still doesn’t mean we know everything about that person, and we don’t know what’s going on in their personal life. And there may be things that are going on that we are absolutely not aware of, but all of a sudden we start seeing that it affects them from a work’s standpoint, and some of these things can just weigh on them to the point that could lead into depression.

(00:10:08)

And then that’s when you go into the warning signs, which is our red flags, and then you start seeing and it kind of goes into the next level, where all of a sudden that person starts making verbal threats or intimidation tactics.

You may see displays of rage or even violence of what we say inanimate objects, where they sweep across a desk or they pick something up and throw it across a room, where they start verbalizing a plan to harm themselves or to harm others where they verbally say these things.

And it may not be specific sort of one of these days you’re going to be sorry or type of talks, type of verbalization like that, is where we say, okay, these are things that once they’re coupled with others our eyes really need to — we need to raise the eyebrow, we need to really start thinking is this a possible situation that is going deeper.

Karla Eckardt: So, are there any basic procedures or protocols that employers should follow when dealing with, for example, the termination of a difficult employee. So, how should an employer handle that situation, just generally, I mean, what’s a good best practice?

Deputy M. Dean Crump: First and foremost is that you always have someone with you in a room as a supervisor that you’re dealing with that termination. Don’t be in there with by yourself, always have another party with you that will help in reference to many things, in reference to your own personal safety and the safety of the office as well as the verification of what is being said.

One of the biggest things that I talked about is timing. If a termination is there, you don’t need to drag it out. Get to the point, say what needs to be said. If this is a person that is just not working out, but you feel like that they’ve not been that bad of an employee, but this is just not working out for them and for the company, then you say that, there’s still a polite and professional way that you could say it, but you need to get to the point of the termination of the employee.

When that’s done, you want to have a certain time limit, if it’s 15 minutes, if it’s 20, if it’s 30, whatever you feel is necessary, but I really suggest not going over the 30-minutes threshold.

Karla Eckardt: There’s no need to drag out a termination for 45 minutes or an hour, that’s absurd.

Deputy M. Dean Crump: Right, and one of the safety issues that we talk about also is, even if it’s a receptionist outside, we don’t want to let the whole entire office know what’s going on, but you need an outside person, outside of that office where the termination is going on so that that person will know what the timeframe is.

At that timeframe, a phone call is made, is what we suggest to one of the officers that are in the room, one of the employee supervisors. And if they do not get an answer on that phone right then, a call is made to your local law enforcement, and explain the situation of what’s going on, they were supposed to answer the phone, they were supposed to step out of the office for safety reasons.

What I’m saying this sets up is it sets up a timetable, so that if you are dealing with that person, if that phone is not answered, if that person does not step out of that room, then there could be a possible situation going on where they feel like that there are some threats going on, and it may not be safe to, and that’s when the person outside of the office makes that immediate call to law enforcement to start to get somebody there.

One reason for that is, is because we also tell them, do not go to the room, don’t go knock on the door, you need to keep it in the framework of a phone call, make sure that their phone is working properly and all beforehand. When they go into the room, what is the timeframe? If it’s 20 minutes, at 20 minutes that phone calls coming into one of the supervisors in that room.

If they fail to answer or they fail to come outside, that receptionist, that assistant outside that room needs to make that immediate call to law enforcement and explain the situation and that they have not come up.

Karla Eckardt: Right, and under no circumstances again, just to reiterate; under no circumstances should they go check on the situation in the event that there is an issue.

Deputy M. Dean Crump: Absolutely not, yes.

Karla Eckardt: Okay.

Deputy M. Dean Crump: Yes, absolutely not. They could be dragged into the room and then all of a sudden you have another hostage situation, if that’s what it leads into. And of course, please understand we’re talking the most critical type of incident.

Karla Eckardt: Right, extremes, definitely.

Deputy M. Dean Crump: Right, thank you, yes.

Karla Eckardt: So, at some point, following this podcast, we’re going to do an exercise with your agency and for those people that may just be tuning in, halfway through the podcast, Deputy Crump’s with the Leon County Sheriff’s Office. So, we are having you perform what you call a commercial safety survey and we’re limiting it to our department, specifically because we want to be treated as somewhat of a law firm leasing office space in a commercial building.

(00:15:04)

We want to go through the steps and we want to see what all you take into consideration. So, what exactly goes into consideration when surveying of businesses, safety practices and physical security, a rundown of your checklist so to speak?

Deputy M. Dean Crump: Sure. There’s basically three sets of things that we look at. One is exterior components around the building on the outside of the building. We look for interior components that are going on inside of the office and inside of the building, and then we talk about the procedural things.

For example, exterior-wise, it could also be any type of landscaping issues in the parking lot; how high are the hedges? Are they where somebody could possibly lay in wait, somebody is working late that night, they are one of the last ones to leave, they come out, and a perpetrator could be hiding behind bushes because they’re tall enough to conceal them, and the next thing you know, they come out and then you have an attack on that person or a robbery on that person.

We talk about tree limbs should not be any lower than a certain length, again, so that that way a perpetrator could not use those for concealing. You would be able to see. Also a reference to outside bushes, you don’t want them higher than the very bottom part of your window. So, any windows around the building, somebody in the building can also see out, see across the parking lot throughout the day, throughout the evening if the business is open at night.

We also talk about the lighting that’s outside in the parking area, front entrance ways, exits, is there enough lighting? Are there possible cameras? Is there a camera system? Is that camera system monitored? Those are things that we do exterior-wise.

Interior-wise, we talk about of course everything from the types of windows actually lighting that’s inside, we talk about door-locks, we talk about hinges to those doors, are they outside hinges, are they inside hinges; meaning could they be tampered with from outside, they could possibly cause somebody to be able to get into the building.

What type of locks do you have on the exterior doors? Interior-wise especially when dealing with a person that may be a receptionist area, does that person have to buzz clients or buzz visitors into the office area? Do they also have a panic button, where if there’s a problem upfront and they need to advise other people in the office that there’s a situation going on that is there a silent panic alarm?

It may go to alarm company or does it at least go into supervisors’ offices? Sometimes we talk about that may having a type of a light that’s a fix in the ceiling that if that light goes on then that would tell a supervisor that there’s a problem out at the front desk. We go through the different exits that there are.

A lot of what we tend to kind of go behind is of course your fire safety, where are the fire exits, but does your people know where those exits are because if we had a situation, where people were looking to leave the building saying that you did have an active shooter situation, do they know how to get out of that building, and if one section of the building is cut off, do they know other ways that they can get out of that building for safety reasons?

Procedural-wise, we talk about the internal things procedure-wise. Are keys kept up with, everything from the badges to fob keys that unlock doors. If somebody is terminated, if they leave the company, are those accounted for? Do you have internal measures that basically are keeping a log of those things anything from making sure that there is a sign-in sheet of every visitor that maybe comes in the building and when they leave, and that they are accounted for or — and asking someone to sign them in.

All of those are procedural things. Also in procedure, we definitely talk about that training is the key, so that’s one of the things as how many trainings are you having during the year? You’re at least having one specific safety training with your team throughout the year.

And so, those are things that we do. We go around in our survey. We also take pictures throughout, so that as we explain these things, we can revert back to an addendum page, which refers to the different pictures, so that the pictures also help explain what it is that we’re referring to in the written part of the commercial survey.

Christine Bilbrey: After someone has been terminated at a place, we talked about how unpleasant that can be and sometimes it drags on, but after you’ve terminated someone say they were at a higher level, so you have to have all the locks changed and you have to make sure the badge is deactivated, do you recommend without making it awkward, notifying all employees that that person has been terminated so that inadvertently another employee doesn’t let them back onto the premises?

(00:20:04)

Deputy M. Dean Crump: Oh, thank you so much for bringing that up. Yes, that’s very key, that’s very vital. We also believe in that. Once a person is terminated it could be somebody that may have been out of the office, they may have been on vacation, they may not have known this is going on, and it could be a week, two weeks, sometime later.

They may have been out on a medical leave or something like that. They come back and they don’t realize that person A has been terminated from the company and then they see him out in the parking lot or they don’t know that they’ve been terminated, so they are thinking they still work there, and that person could come in and say, “Hey man, I forgot my key, could you buzz me in today?” And they do it because they think they are still an employee.

So, absolutely that is very critical, not beforehand, but as soon as that is done everyone needs to be notified that that person is no longer employed with the company. That once again just goes into those procedural things and also the internal keys that are critical in referencing to make sure the safety of everyone in the building.

Somebody could possibly leave and you would think there’s no problem whatsoever, but we don’t know what’s going on in their personal life, and the next thing they snap and they take it back to that “this didn’t happen until I got fired”. Then the next thing is, is then they are coming back to that place to seek out some type of revenge or to confront the person that fired them, and that’s one of those things that definitely we want to do, is make sure that everybody in the company knows when that person is terminated. If they see them after the fact, then they absolutely immediately need to notify supervision that that person was seen in the parking lot, that they were outside the building, and if so, always call law enforcement.

If nothing ends up being wrong, that’s fine, but it’s a way to act quickly before something happens and if we show up, law enforcement shows up, that person is there. They may need to be trespassed from the premises, but you don’t want to go and deal with that person necessarily without law enforcement at least being on the way and you could find out why are they there and if they start to be combative or confrontational you’ve already got law enforcement in realms and those things are key.

Karla Eckardt: And, now that we’re talking about sort of the important indicators and then sort of considerations that you take into account when you’re surveying physical security, what are the most commonly overlooked yet easily or inexpensively corrected physical security measures?

Deputy M. Dean Crump: First and foremost is usually the locking mechanisms for doors. Several times doors and door jams that may not be shutting correctly. Those are some of the first things that we usually will note a lock is not locking properly. So, therefore, there are some safety issues in reference to people coming in and out that may not even be associated with the business at all, and those are probably the first and foremost parts.

And also, especially, exterior-wise is lighting. Lighting is really a key element to the parking lots and keeping the area safe. It’s not just about having lighting but having the proper type of lighting to make sure that you get sort of as we say the most bang for your buck. It’s going to give you the most light and light up the area in a way to where if somebody was to come up and confront you or possibly attack you that there is a good chance that that’s going to be able to be seen. You don’t want any dead spots or dark spots as we call them throughout a parking lot area or around any type of entry/exit doors around the office itself.

Christine Bilbrey: And now that we’ve talked about sort of the basics of what you need to do, both outside and inside your place of business to keep it safe, I’d like to move on to Active Shooter Preparedness. So, statistically this is among the least common forms of workplace violence; however, it’s always sort of best to be prepared for this or any emergency situation for that matter. So, what can employers and employees do to prepare and respond in the event that an active shooter incident occurs?

Deputy M. Dean Crump: Sure, well, the very first thing that we always talk about is train, train, train. It is our mantra especially for preparedness, especially for prevention. You cannot say enough about making sure that your people are aware of the dangers and what the situations are. Knowledge is key. One of the things that we often talked about in our presentation that we have is, what are the two responses?

Well, there’s a trained response and then there’s the untrained response. First of all when something happens when an incidence begins in an active shooter, there’s always going to be startle and fear, both ways, from a trained response and an untrained response.

(00:24:58)

But from an untrained response as someone that has not gone through any type of training, the first thing you’re going to see is, of course, panic. Panic will set in because they don’t know what’s going on, they’re scared, and then it goes into a form of disbelief psychologically. The “I can’t believe this is happening” then into denial, which is, “this is not happening”. From that point it’s what I call “cement on your shoes” it’s that form of helplessness. This is it. This is, “I’m probably — this is going to be the end. There’s nothing I can do to help myself”, and those are the untrained responses that happen.

When we talk about the trained response and you go through a preparedness, what happens is, first is, there’s the anxiousness of I’ve got to do something. Now, I’m not talking about to the person that’s actually do it but I’ve got to do something in getting out, is what we teach is run, but I’m anxious to do it, but I got to be kind of educated. I got to be very meticulous with the direction of which I want to go. I’ve got to make sure that I’m not going into a shooter’s path. I want to make sure that I’m going the opposite direction, and I may be anxious to immediately do something; but you have to stop yourself a little bit, get yourself together, and that’s what we call Recall.

Recall is when you had that preparation, you had some training and all of a sudden that training goes back into your brain and you start pulling it forward as to, okay, I need to stay low, I need to make sure that I’m concealing myself, hide behind cover or something that could stop a bullet while I’m trying to make my way to an exit. Then we go into Prepare, that is, preparing yourself, preparing your mind that, okay, this is the way I need to go. This is how I need to try to get out of here or do I need to stop and try to hide somewhere because the situation is where I cannot escape. I do not have a route that’s safely for me to escape, and then also to prepare for the point where if you come in contact face-to-face with that perpetrator of the active shooter and that is inevitable, then there’s the fight portion, which is also to prepare. It could be that this person is going to come in contact with me. If that happens, I have to prepare myself for the act of defending myself.

And then the last is that commit to act. It is not only to prepare yourself for that, but then commit to it, is being ready grabbing what you can as a possible weapon to help defend yourself and to help possibly stop that person, and then once that situation and you become face-to-face with that person, it’s a life-or-death situation . It’s commit to it. That is the trained response. It is that anxiousness, that recall, that prepare and then a commit to the act, and that’s the two differences that we like to teach in reference to how one side is going to respond compared to another side, which is that untrained response where it’s panic, disbelief, denial, and then helplessness.

So that’s the biggest thing that we try to teach, is to prepare your people by giving them the training, and it’s always best to at least do it once a year to keep it fresh in their mind, and also remember, you’re going to have people that are going to go and go to other jobs and then you’re going to have new employees that are going to come in and you want them to be on that same page as the other employees that have been there for a while and maybe have gone through this training, maybe even once, twice, couple times. Get everybody on that same page and what it is that you want to do to make sure that your entire office stays safe.

Christine Bilbrey: I’m glad you said it like that because I think too often an employer will show a new employee a video of here, here’s some active shooter training, but ideally, you want your employees to act as a team. So, when your office or any municipality sends out their Community Relations Officer, do you go through that, like, “What are you individuals going to do here in this place where you are every day?” Is it that kind of training that you can offer, so that there is a plan?

Deputy M. Dean Crump: Yeah, well, there are some agencies that actually go through that, quite often we don’t have the resources, and as far as the people that we can actually commit to going through like a scenario-based training, and also what we do in ours is we do a presentation where we can talk with them about preparing themselves, and there’s times when we say that you may want to, within yourself, to have just like you have a fire drill.

Do you want to have a lockdown drill, if you will, just like a school does for your place of business? This is where certain doorways that lead to hallways that if there’s something going on in front that can you lock those doors so that it’s going to be harder for someone to get back into other areas, and we talked about that and we also suggest that internally that they may want to consider that and do that on their own is to work on an exit strategy.

(00:29:57)

An exit plan just like you with a fire’s drill, is how to get out of the building and making sure that they know one of the things I spoke of the other day with the group was in actually giving their employees like a little 00:30:11 of the outline of the building, and can they mark on the sheet where the exits are for the building? And how many AED machines do you have and can they mark where those AED machines are, and we even talked about of where also fire extinguishers are located?

And then that would be nice, a good little test, is that you hand it to, you don’t have to grade or something, it’s just for their knowledge, just saying, okay, how many of you guys got it right, and it will bring them into a better knowledge of these things, and they are going to feel better about it, because if they realize it first that, wow, I don’t — how many exits? Oh, we had eight exits, well, I only put down three. Okay, do I need to know, because you may be in different parts of the building, that’s the point? You may not be in your office. What if you are in the restroom or what if you are in somebody else’s office or a conference room where you’re having a meeting, okay, do you need to know all the exits that there are?

And those are things that the business can do for their employees to bring them into better knowledge about how to prepare themselves, and that’s part of that training that we are talking about.

Christine Bilbrey: And you make an excellent point, because each part of this training is flowing into another thing, so it’s almost become just a comprehensive first aid, fire, shooter, it’s all about workplace safety, so those things do start to roll together, and I like that you’re reminding people that those need to be done every year.

So, we found some resources, we know that the Department of Homeland Security has videos and training materials on Active Shooter Preparedness. The FBI has a resource available called Workplace Violence Issues in Response. Can you recommend any additional resources that our listeners could consider if they want to prepare for security, like policies, procedures, training, where should they reach out?

Deputy M. Dean Crump: Well, definitely, I mean, you have just mentioned them actually. We actually – the parts of our active shooter situation is actually taken from Homeland Security. The parts of that that have been out there for actually some time now, it’s kind of the go-to, and definitely some of your governmental sites, Homeland Security sites, like I said the FBI, those are areas where you can actually go on some of those sites and just by putting in Active Shooter Preparedness or Safety Preparedness, and a lot of those do give you resources of which you can use that can at least put it on your mind and give you some ways to think about that.

And of course, always reaching out to your local law enforcement agencies, that is number one in key is, many of them with their crime prevention units they will have a type of information and even the classes and the type of training that we give. And I don’t like to say training because I always think people think of it like a scenario-based, so I like to say the presentations that we give. Other agencies all throughout the State do this.

Christine Bilbrey: Really valuable information. It looks like we’ve reached the end of our program. Deputy Crump, thank you so much for joining us today.

Deputy M. Dean Crump: You’re very welcome and I appreciate you having me.

Christine Bilbrey: And if our listeners have questions or want to follow up, if they’re here in the Leon County area, how can they reach you?

Deputy M. Dean Crump: They can reach me at 850-606-3332 or they can also reach me, I’d be happy to answer any questions on my email, which is at  HYPERLINK “mailto:[email protected]” [email protected]. That goes straight to my email address.

Christine Bilbrey: Excellent. Thank you. If you like what you heard today, please rate us in Apple Podcast. Join us next time for another episode of The Florida Bar Podcast brought to you by the Practice Resource Institute on Legal Talk Network. I am Christine Bilbrey.

Karla Eckardt: And I am Karla Eckardt, until next time, and thank you for listening.

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