How to strike up conversations that build your book of business

Episode Notes

Transcript

Lee Rawles:

Welcome to the Modern Law Library. I’m your host, the ABA Journals Lee Rawles, and today I’m joined by Deb Feder. She’s the author of the book After Hello, how to Build a Book of Business, one Conversation at a Time. Deb, thanks so much for joining us.

Deb Feder:

Thank you, Lee, for having me.

Lee Rawles:

So right off the top, when I have spoken to people who have books of advice or who’ve become consultants in some area to serve lawyers or other people, I kind of find that they fall into one of two camps. Either they developed a specialty because they were already highly skilled at doing the thing, or they themselves struggled in this area and now they want to help other people solve the problem that they themselves solved. So do you think that one of those two camps applies to you? How did you come to write this book to help people have the kind of conversations that lead to building their ideal client base?

Deb Feder:

What a great question. And I’m not sure I fall into either camp exactly, but me, I’ll tell you how it came to be. So I did practice law for 15 years and I was both in private practice in a big law firm as well as in-house. When I came back, I started and ended both in private practice and when I came back to private practice, I realized that there were things that we could be doing to make building a book, engaging with client relationships, managing our practice easier, and I really did a deep dive into how can we do this together? And conversations happen to be at the front and center of almost all of it over the last 10 years. It’s really what I’ve dedicated my business to and really enjoy working with clients of both in-house and private practice, as well as other professionals on how do we use these everyday moments, these everyday conversations and interactions to bring in business, nurture relationships, solve problems.

Lee Rawles:

I can tell you one of the most popular podcasts, the A Journal ever produced had the headline, A Shy Lawyers Guide to Rainmaking. I think this is an area that a lot of attorneys feel very self-conscious about. They may have gone to law school because they loved nerding out about the minutia of the law, and I don’t think enough attention is necessarily paid to the kind of business development, client development in law schools that will actually help people out there. So when you have lawyers coming to you, what are the biggest fears that they express or nerves that they have about trying to become this rainmaker to build this book of business?

Deb Feder:

Well, first of all, I think there’s this misconception that it’s like these big moments, right? I’ve got to work and there’s going to be this big explosive moment where the book just happens and really it’s about progressing conversations along the way. It’s nurturing relationships and quite frankly, if you love to geek out on your practice area a certain industry, that’s really great to lean into because people love to work with others who are enthusiastic and interested in the work that they want to hire you for, right?

Lee Rawles:

Absolutely. You had this moment in the book where you talk about the nerves of targeting a cool client and you compared it to going to visit a boyfriend’s family and feeling like, well, you had to be the perfect girlfriend, and so you ended up doing things that didn’t feel natural to you and did not necessarily prolong the relationship. Can you talk a little bit about that, these nerves that people feel and how to get over that?

Deb Feder:

Yes, I will leave it for people to read the story in the book, but needless to say, I was a vegetarian before I started the visit and I maybe wasn’t by the end and it was more because I didn’t know what to do. Right. So you

Lee Rawles:

Ate so many ribs.

Deb Feder:

Yes, Lee. I still think about that day. I do. I still think about that day. So I think that we get worked up in our heads over what we’re supposed to do or what it’s supposed to look like. Another great example is throwing the really big long fancy dinners and assuming that a client wants to be wind and dined, when in reality they would love tacos and a four o’clock, can we catch up for a walk knowing somebody and just being able to lean into what’s comfortable for both of you. Humans want to work with other humans, and it doesn’t have to be a production every time. Sometimes it’s just paying. Most of the time it’s just paying attention to who the other person is on the other side of the phone, the screen, the deal, and getting to know them and then nurturing that relationship in a way that makes sense.

Lee Rawles:

One thing I found pretty striking about the book was I picked it up, I saw the headline after Hello Building a Book of Business, one Conversation at a Time, and I kind of thought to myself, okay, so we’re going to dive right into how to hold an interesting conversation and how to direct it. And actually the way the book is structured, you first talk about the work that attorneys need to be doing on themselves to feel more secure in themselves and their values before they do any of that outreach work. Can you talk a little bit about that stage? I did find it really striking and important.

Deb Feder:

So if you’re out there just trying to be impressive and in front of lots of people, but you haven’t grounded yourself in what’s important to you, the value you bring to the table as the professional, you’re going to miss out on attracting clients that are right fits for you. You’re going to instead just be out there trying to sprinkle your name like confetti everywhere. Whereas if you pause and recognize this is the path that I’ve been on, here are some of the hard skills I’ve learned through my experience, my expertise, but then here’s the lessons along the way. In the timeline exercise, it’s not a resume laying out your resume, but it’s like where did I encounter a complicated challenge? Where did I get stuck with a difficult relationship and how did I overcome that?

Lee Rawles:

And let’s talk about the timeline challenge. And anyone who’d like to take a look at this could get a quick peek if they go to deb federer.com/guide. There is a guide that outlines the timeline exercise, but for listeners, what’s the practice timeline about?

Deb Feder:

The practice timeline really is about starting with your very first job ever. So Lee, let me ask you, what was your very first when you got paid job?

Lee Rawles:

If we don’t count babysitting, it would be working the university book rush at the university bookstore when I was 16.

Deb Feder:

Okay. Tell me about what is the university book rush?

Lee Rawles:

Each semester everyone has to go in and buy their textbooks, and I had many people who cried in line, the architecture students especially, but also the law students. Those textbooks are expensive and the university’s bookstore has to hire on additional help. It’s like the holiday rush, which I also worked for that bookstore where they just need extra bodies because everyone’s coming in to buy their textbooks.

Deb Feder:

So I’m going to guess if you and I just paused this podcast, we could go on and on about the crying in line, how you learned how to manage a rush of people, organize a crowd, stay calm, all the things you learned from that first job. And most people, when you get them talking about their first job, have really great stories and their face lights up and they get really excited to talk about whether it was pizza delivery or for me it was learning how to parallel park when I was running errands for a law firm. But when we start mapping out what we’ve done and our experiences and the lessons, we start to recognize all that we bring to the table, which is a lot more than just, I worked at this place for this number of years. It’s less transactional and it gets into the depth of who you are as a professional. It also allows you to enrich than your conversations. It allows clients to get to know you. We infuse it into your LinkedIn bio or your website bio. It can help give you some content to share when you’re, again, as you’re wanting to put yourself out there to attract clients, it gives a different layer of what you’re sharing. Does that make sense?

Lee Rawles:

Absolutely. And it really personalizes it beyond, well, I practice securities law Well, okay.

Deb Feder:

Yeah. And that’s when everybody looks at each other and goes, huh, okay, we don’t. It’s like it’s a dead end. I always say nobody ever walks into a party and says, shh, it’s now time for the elevator speeches. That doesn’t happen.

Lee Rawles:

I enjoyed that. You had some examples of conversation starters versus conversation stoppers, and I think that was similar to one of the conversation stoppers. Could you talk about some other conversation stoppers that people accidentally do

Deb Feder:

Fall into,

Lee Rawles:

Yeah, fall into when they think I’m going to make a connection with this other business professional?

Deb Feder:

Well, so there’s so many, but just a few are the ones, the rambling, right? So I’m just going to keep talking until somebody finds something that I’m saying interesting. And what happens then is you just keep going and there’s no end point. And so everybody’s waiting, but you’ve just kept going. And at that point, there’s nothing else to talk about. So a major stopper. Another one is when it gets real salesy from hello to, Hey, can we talk about working together? You missed so much in the middle there. You’ve really actually stopped the conversation before it ever got started.

Lee Rawles:

And what are some of the conversations starters that are more productive?

Deb Feder:

I like to walk in with a good question and everybody says to me, well, tell me the magic question. I’m like, it’s not one magic question. Every person has their own question and often they change as your practice changes or what you’re working on changes. But when you can walk into either a conversation or into a networking event and you’ve got one thing that you’re interested in learning about others, you’re now going to expand the conversation. So I often ask people right from the start, what’s something that you could talk about all day long that’s not about work? And actually when I do workshops or retreats, I have people write that on their name tag and sometimes I laugh, I’m like, I don’t really have to do anything else but let everybody go talk about what’s on their name tags because people get really interested and excited to learn more.

Lee Rawles:

I love that as an icebreaker. I think that that’s

Deb Feder:

Fantastic. Can I tell you all the things I’ve learned from it? It’s amazing.

Lee Rawles:

Let’s say top three, what are your top three?

Deb Feder:

Well, so I did do it at a retreat that was right after Taylor and Travis got together, and I’m from Kansas City and literally every single name tag was, I could talk all day long about Taylor and Travis, which then made it super great that I was from Kansas City. So then we could have that conversation. Another one is there was somebody who actually liked to organize closets. And when I tell you the group around this individual asking for advice and tips, and I mean it was fantastic, the conversation of what people were really interested in learning more about.

Lee Rawles:

One thing I love about that is you talk about the importance of in a relationship trust building and that there’s not really a super shortcut to that. And people often assume that a client can feel like that total trust in you automatically. What? I’m a good person, I’m a good lawyer, why wouldn’t they? And learning more about a person’s whole self does make me trust them more. As long as what I’m learning is something that displays trustworthiness.

Deb Feder:

Okay, that’s fair.

Lee Rawles:

Sometimes you learn a little more about someone and you think, oh no, that is an error in judgment. So I really like that. And I also like the keywords that you have about the conversations that you’re wanting people to engage in, which is curious, confident conversations. Can you talk about how you came up with that phrase, what that phrase means and how people can use it? Maybe it’s a little mantra before they’re walking into an event where they know that they’re going to be speaking to people who they may not know well or at all.

Deb Feder:

So I think I just used the phrase over and over again and finally I was like, oh, this is actually all that I stand for. So I don’t know that I sat down one day and was like, I need a tagline. I was like, oh, I have a tagline, is really how it evolved. But we often spend so much time getting an event on a calendar, knowing who’s there worrying about getting in the room that we don’t think about the rest of the conversations that you want to have or how you want to feel at the end. So putting that confidence in there is actually pausing and saying, what do I want to have happened when I walk out of the room? When I hang up this phone? What do I want there to be rolling forward? And it lets you ground yourself in your confidence in showing up and being present and just being able to pay attention.

And then when you layer curiosity in there, quite frankly, you are allowing the other person, okay, so let’s say it’s a potential client. When you can tap into their expertise and understanding their point of view, you are showing that you care. You are telling a whole lot about your approach to practicing and how you pay attention the details. You’ll remember it’s shining through without ever having to say that awkward, I’m a trustworthy person. That kind of is the red flag for maybe or not. It would just be awkward. So I think that when you can layer the two together, they make for the foundation of a great business development conversation.

Lee Rawles:

And I think that probably most listeners can identify with the feeling of you’re at some sort of networking event and you just feel like the other person has a checklist that they are ticking off that doesn’t even maybe super need your buy-in. They have their mission and they’re going to say it, and that’s the confidence piece. But the curiosity is so important. I want to feel like you are interested in me. You’re not just fulfilling a side quest and a video game

Deb Feder:

A thousand percent, right? So there’s some fine lines in a networking event. You want to pause and be present and get to know people at the same time of mingling and being willing to say, you know what? I would love to continue this conversation next week. That’s when it gets exciting and fun. So I always say to people, if you’re walking into a big event, find three people, not that you don’t know, but that you don’t know and you’re excited to continue the conversation with less clinging to the they’re the ideal client and more. It was a really great discussion and I can’t wait to learn more.

Lee Rawles:

Well, we’re going to take a quick break to hear from our advertisers when we return. I’ll still be speaking with Deb Feder, author of After Hello, how to Build a Book of Business, one Conversation at a Time. Welcome back to the Modern Law Library. I’m your host, Lee Rawles here with Deb Feder. And Deb, I want to circle back to something we talked about at the beginning of our conversation, which is making yourself ready to have these conversations to build this book of business. One interesting thing that you brought up was the difference in people’s daily life within a firm. Now that we are all at the mercy of technology and email and you had a question in there that I’m just going to read really quickly. I think it gets to a fundamental piece that makes people feel very overwhelmed. How do you balance the chaos of the day and allow technology to be the support and solution rather than part of the challenge?

How do you let it serve not destroy you? A lot of listeners out there may say, yeah, no, it sounds great. Building this book of business, I’m so overwhelmed, I’m so busy, I am not experiencing the same kind of interactions with partners that I would have when everybody was working at the firm. How do I even do this? So when you get someone coming to you and they’re feeling that sense of overwhelm and maybe they’re not getting the kind of opportunities that lawyers in the past may have, where do you have them start thinking about how to change this?

Deb Feder:

Well, honestly, this is where organization and helping lawyers and professionals with productivity really took a centerpiece to my work because I recognized if it was always going to be the worry of I can’t add more and I’m constantly chasing this task list, nobody was ever going to get to the networking and conversations and business development efforts that they want and need for the practice that they’re looking to grow. Does that make sense?

Lee Rawles:

It does. And I think for young associates or even mid-career associates, you can get into a real pattern where you’re like, well, my top priority is to be of use to the other people at the firm. This will at some point somehow result in me having access to the kinds of clients I want. And in the book you kind of very gently say, this doesn’t usually end up turning out that way. Could you talk a little bit about that?

Deb Feder:

Yes, and I think that, so here’s the thing, let me go back really quick and share that. If we’re always chasing and trying to wait until our inbox is under control or our task list is empty, we’re waiting for this just beautiful empty day that we’re going to then decide to launch, it’s sort of the waiting game to never going to happen. Whereas if you’re always thinking that if I just do good work and stay for the long course, it will one day be mine. There’s so many assumptions along that path, right? You’re assuming that nobody else has actually been nurturing that work. You’re assuming that the client is going to want to stay with the firm when the partner retires, you’re going to assume that that’s actually the work that you love. There’s so many different assumptions. And instead, when you start taking control of and engaging in nurturing your own network, growing your own network, building your practice, sharing your expertise, you get to navigate that path. You’ve got some control, which is often what people are looking for.

Lee Rawles:

Absolutely. I got us away from the topic of technology you do have for listeners who want to pick up after. Hello, if you are feeling overwhelmed by your inbox, Deb has strategies step by step strategies and I’ll just encourage people to pick up the book for that. But you mentioned that you began your career as a lawyer in private practice and then returned to it again after some in-house time. What did you see as the major differences that technology had made during that time to client development to the way younger associates and partners interacted, the way cases happen and the kinds of contacts with the clients that younger attorneys were able to have?

Deb Feder:

Okay, so this is going to date me. I mean really this is like we’re going to age Deb right now. So when I started practicing, yes, there were laptops, but I think we had the VPN hookup at home with a really long phone cord that went across my entire apartment to be able to work remotely. And I actually think that was maybe four or five years into practice when I started practicing, you stayed at the firm and because everybody was there working, you got to know people. People would grab you and say, come to this client meeting, or I’m jumping on a call, come join in. It was very easy to engage in the conversations and get to know more about others. When I came back, things had changed.

The laptop was the tool of choice, and we had this way of working that was much more siloed. So I came back to an office where I recognized right away, if I didn’t make the effort to get up, move around, do all the things that no one was necessarily going to come find me, you had to become more intentional about it. And that I think was the biggest shift, and that’s really why I talk about building a book of business is really a choice. And you have to make some intentional efforts. Not every single day, all day, but the consistent everyday interactions and being aware of them and choosing to engage in them is what’s going to make the difference. And you being able to see the results enough that it’s fun to stay in the game.

Lee Rawles:

When I think about the importance of those older mentors or just more experienced people at the firm, one of the anecdotes you talk about in the book is so important and it is in the chapter about owning your value. And you talk about a time when I believe that the firm was looking at essentially the bill that was going to be delivered to the client. It was a little staggering number. You immediately felt panic and said, oh, well we could reduce my hours. I mean, gosh, that’s such a huge number. And the partner stopped you. Could you talk about that and what it meant to you and what you took from it going forward?

Deb Feder:

So it was actually a pitch and we were having a pre-pitch meeting and everybody was looking at the numbers and looking at the information that we were providing. And I looked at mine and kind of just did that really gut double check of seriously. And I said, you guys, what I do doesn’t need to be that we can do again, I’m always looking for efficiencies and ways to make it win-wins with a client. And I said, I don’t know that it needs to be that big. And this partner sat me down and said, sit down at this table. And he said, we are going to sit here and I’ll sit here all day with you until you understand and own the incredible value you bring to the table for clients and the work that you do. And he sat there with me and we talked it out, and we did not leave that table until I owned every penny of my highest a rate billable hour. And it really changed how I think about the value of the work, the value of expertise, the value of perspective, and I really try to help my clients with that same journey.

Lee Rawles:

I think that would’ve been a core memory for me. Yeah, the establishment of no, you need to truly understand your worth and it is not nothing come up now.

Deb Feder:

And I did deliver a copy of after Hello with a thank you note on that page to the partner.

Lee Rawles:

I love that. Well, we’re going to take another quick break to hear from our advertisers when we come back. Let’s talk about the myth of the ideal client. Welcome back to this episode of the Modern Law Library. I’m your host, Lee Rawles here with Deb Feder, author of the book after. Hello. So let’s talk about the myth of the ideal client and right up at the top, we’re not saying that there’s no such thing as an ideal client. Take us through what you mean when you say the myth of the ideal client.

Deb Feder:

So I actually do believe there are ideal clients and I often look around and recognize all those that I work with and talk to people about that you often are working with your ideal clients right now. I think that there’s this idea that it looks different than it is so that the ideal client, if somebody said, okay, what’s your ideal client? They’re like, oh, they take me. They have closings in exotic places and they’re always doing cutting edge deals and they respect all my time, and they go home by three o’clock and they don’t check emails till 10:00 AM and they’ve got this really photoshopped version of a client relationship. In reality, an ideal client is so much different than that. It’s one where a client understands your expertise and respects it. And once you at the table with them as their advisor, it is one where the trust is mutual, where you can be able to say to somebody, I need to shut down today. I’ve got a family event happening. And not only do they not care that you’re going to the family event, they’re excited and sending you congratulations along the way. So knowing, and everybody has a different kind of different checklist so to speak, but when we get out of trying to make it an airbrushed approach to what this ideal client is, we can really start to find the clients and the work that energize and align with you and your values.

Lee Rawles:

As I was reading through some of the exercises that EU are asking readers to do when it comes to developing their ideal client, I thought to myself, I bet a lot of people come to her and say kind of a big picture, oh, well, I really want to work with startups. I want to do venture capital deals, but don’t realize that they actually have a much narrower desire. They talked about something broad, but if you actually ask them questions, they can much more carefully target who they’re going after to try and work with. Do you find a lot of the time that people don’t even understand how much they have when it comes to ideas about who they actually do want to work with?

Deb Feder:

Oh, absolutely. Often I’ll hear, oh, I’ll work with anybody in this space. And then I say, really? And I start asking questions intentionally to be like, okay, so if somebody came to you and I pick typically some pretty outrageous scenarios, I’m like, would that really be okay for you? Well, no, I don’t want to do that. And so we start to hone in on what area they really want to work in or what type of client they really want to work with. And then also how do you know? Is it because it just looks great from the outside or have you had other experience with other clients that may not from the outside seem all that exciting and interesting, but the work you get to do with them is awesome.

Lee Rawles:

Well, and I also liked this phrase, the messy middle. Let’s say you have a client who you’ve been working with and there have been some mismatches about the situation, or maybe you feel like, oh, we didn’t really get to do the work together that I wanted us to, or we had miscommunications. Maybe there was a lack of boundary setting. You talk about how hey, this messy middle, you can work on that if the client’s willing obviously, and that you and your ideal client can and will change over time. Would love to hear more about that, especially if you had any anonymized examples of someone realizing that they had sort of a messy middle client that they could develop into their ideal client.

Deb Feder:

So first of all, if a client calls you to complain, be upset, they’re worried about something, that’s a business development conversation. And I can give you example after example where those have actually been the launching pad for a much better, deeper, bigger client relationship because the client cared enough to pick up the phone and say, we got to talk about this. It’s how you handle that. That is the determining factor of whether or not this is going to be a relationship that grows or one that you give up on. So if you have somebody calling and saying, I don’t understand why we’re waiting on this, right? They’re not just stewing and talking about it with other people, they are bringing you into the conversation and pausing and letting them talk and then allowing yourself to share where it’s at. Also being mature enough to call and say, I think we need a reboot. Can we get on the phone and talk?

Lee Rawles:

When you’re having to have these difficult conversations or you’re having a hard time as you point out, the profession of law is so difficult. We have so many people within the legal profession who really struggle with mental health and sleep and personal relationships and just getting it all together. I really appreciated that you said, listen, it is very valid and important for there to be forms of release of venting, but you need to do it in healthy ways. Can you talk a little bit about that? For listeners who are like, I feel overwhelmed, I really need to talk about this with someone. I probably shouldn’t be the client. I don’t know that I’m comfortable with it. Being the big boss at the firm, what are examples of healthy ways that you can de-stress like that?

Deb Feder:

So there are so many reasons why self-care and taking care of yourself and understanding the demands of the profession and how to balance that with, again, having to navigate some really complicated conversations or situations for clients. A lawyer’s job by and large is taking the challenges for somebody else or another entity and taking care of them. There’s a lot of stress involved in that. So first of all, sleep provides you the ability to have some clarity of thought, which is what you’re being paid for. So as a starter, I always say, let’s just start with understanding that sleep is not like an extra or a luxury. It’s actually something that’s necessary to do the work at the highest level. You want to do it from there, finding a trusted advisor. So I actually have a new book coming out in the fall, and it’s all about building this trusted thinking partner relationship. And while we’re looking to develop that between clients and attorneys, you also need that as the attorney for yourself as the professional. So whether it is a coach, a mentor, a colleague where you have sat down and had a conversation of, we need to be able to be here and support each other in a way that allows us to vent in a safe space, but then problem solve together. So it’s not just about complaining and getting everybody riled up, but it’s how do I navigate this?

Lee Rawles:

And what I appreciated too is as you laid out the difference between helpful and unhelpful venting, there’s some ways in which you can talk about problems which are just going to bring down the whole group, increase the stress and not lead anybody out of this darkness into the light. And then there are ways to do it in a way that actually then improves the situation. What are some of the biggest missteps you see people make in that area?

Deb Feder:

I mean, I guess we have to start with, listen, social media has, it’s a really incredible forum that has evolved over the last few decades, but taking your largest events and complaints and putting them out there without thinking about what that conversation might evolve into, I think is something that I would suggest you at least want to pause and think about before ever hitting post. I think there are certain things that lend themselves to those more public conversations than others. Is that fair?

Lee Rawles:

It is. And you do provide some guidance in there about starting conversations on LinkedIn, for example. LinkedIn has become a place where lawyers have really interesting conversations. We at the ABA, Journal are seeing a large boost in traffic from LinkedIn. I think it’s a really great arena, but you also see LinkedIn gone wrong posts sometimes. If listeners could take away just some really high level, what are some examples of LinkedIn would you say?

Deb Feder:

Well, so I love LinkedIn and I did not used to love LinkedIn, so let’s just be clear, I was not a, I’m sold on LinkedIn from day one person. In fact, I got dared to post on LinkedIn and literally landed a client 48 hours later from it, and I was like, oh, this worked. Which really was kind of a bummer for me. I was like, now I’ve got to figure you out. This isn’t just playing around. I’ve actually got to invest both for myself and my clients. I think it’s an incredible platform. I think that it’s a great space to not only allow your expertise to shine, but to engage in conversations, to be a part of bigger dialogues and to know more about what’s going on for your clients. That being said, if it is something that you’re trying to work out for yourself or for a client, you have to believe that anything that you’re putting out there, anybody can be reading. And you want to be mindful of that and make the choice that makes sense for you, your practice, and your clients. It’s kind of like, I’ve got teenagers, right? So we talk a lot about social media and how what you think is today is really a lifetime of following you, and what is the conversation you want to have or what you want to explain about that later.

Lee Rawles:

I like that. I also want to talk about something in the book that I think can be so helpful. I remember in my photojournalism class, one of the first exercises they had you do was a little bit of a desensitization. You needed to go up to a stranger and say, hello, can I take your picture and get your name and contact information? And you needed to take 30 portraits, you needed to go up to 30, more than 30 strangers, because some people were going to say, no, you weirdo, and just make the ask. And the first couple of times were excruciating. And then by the 30th you’re like, Hey,

Deb Feder:

I need you in a picture. Let’s do this.

Lee Rawles:

Strike a pose, give me your phone number. And it was extremely useful in getting over that initial fear of, oh my gosh, how could I do that? And I was reminded of that exercise when I came to the partner book where you have this challenge, it’s a little bit of a scavenger hunt almost of 30 conversations in 30 days. Could you talk about that project and have you heard back from anyone who did it and found value in it?

Deb Feder:

So interestingly, it might be the most talked about section of the book that over and over again, people say to me, it’s the best part, it’s the most useful. I’ve loved it. I’ve done it multiple times. The fascinating part about that is I wrote that entire section with almost no edits in less than two hours. And it was just one of those things where it just made sense. And it’s often a lot of the exercises that I have people do, either when we’re doing group sessions or productivity boosts or Hey, let’s focus on building some everyday habits. Some of it is just the touch bases, like reaching out to somebody that you’ve just had a meeting with in the last two weeks and following up, making sure who have you not followed up with, and just keep that rolling forward or turning around and saying, okay, I’m going to see people and getting in the habits of looking at the calendar and saying, who am I about to see? Okay, let me use that as a moment to reach out to them and doing it in a way that’s not overthinking these emails. You asked earlier, Lee about when do I see people getting stuck? It’s when they’re sitting at a desk for over a lengthy period of time, hours trying to write the perfect email to say to somebody, Hey, I’m going to be in town, would love to grab lunch. Right?

Lee Rawles:

It is the cover letter of business conversations. You just, oh, it’s so hard.

Deb Feder:

Yes, but it’s really not. And so I have a template and I’m always happy to share them with people that we just write the email. And if you get, because you know what’s going to happen, people are excited to get the email, they’re excited to hear from you. They want the connection, they want the conversation, and they’re going to respond. So the best part is when people say to me, we’ll be in a live session and we’ll have sent out four or five emails and somebody will respond back with, oh my gosh, they’ve already responded. Yes. And now we’re going to respond back, right? We’re going to make a plan or we’re going to carry the conversation forward. It’s really awesome when you get out of the rut of what do I do? What should I do? I, I’ll just give you the ideas.

Lee Rawles:

And what I like about the ideas is inertia is the killer. And this helps break the inertia because, okay, well there’s this 30 point checklist of just something you could try. Try this thing, try that thing, try this thing. And on any given day you might say, okay, I think I could complete the lost client checkpoint. Something like that. I found that really fun. This book did come out two years ago. What has been the response that you’ve gotten? Has there been anything that’s really surprised you when you hear from readers of after? Hello?

Deb Feder:

One of the most fun things I got is I get stories. People will message me and say, I am rereading this chapter, that chapter, whatever they’re working on. And I really, I’m staying here until I work through this. And they’ll give me their personal antidotes. They’ll tell me what’s happening, why it resonates. And I had no idea I would ever get these kinds of notes. And they are often sometimes lead to bigger conversations. Sometimes I’ll help problem solve something or I’m hearing about how it helped them move past a challenger a situation. I also get a lot of people who send me a note and say, I’m not a lawyer. Is it okay that I’m changing the word lawyer in the book to whatever their profession is? Which of course it is, right? It’s hard to write to every single professional who works with clients at a high level, but the lessons are the same no matter the profession you are in.

Lee Rawles:

Well, you said something kind of profound to lawyers, which is you have picked a profession that has never finished meeting people, but certainly law is not the only profession that is like that. So I can absolutely see how this could end up applying to a number of different professions

Deb Feder:

For certain.

Lee Rawles:

So Deb, if people were interested in picking up the book, maybe in contacting you personally or in hearing more about the book that’s coming out in the fall, how could they do

Deb Feder:

That? So you can always find me on LinkedIn. I use the hashtag biz Deb, or just look up Deb Feder. My website is debfeder.com. And Lee lemme tell you that this summer we’re doing a really exciting kind of summer boost for it’s open to anybody who would like to participate. It starts on June 1st, and every month there’s going to be a every day interaction and everyday conversation or task to track and report in to be able to see how the accountability and momentum of just knowing what to do and having that menu to choose from can support you and your practice and your goals. And there’s a big group already signed up and that is available to jump in and join. All anybody needs to do is reach out to me and I’ll get you on the list. It’s complimentary for the summer, but it really leads into tell me more, which is coming out in September, which is building trusted client relationships through everyday interactions.

Lee Rawles:

And your email address is

Deb Feder:

[email protected].

Lee Rawles:

Well, thank you so much to Deb for appearing on this episode of the Modern Law Library, and thank you to my listeners for joining us as well. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate, review and subscribe in your favorite podcast listening service that really helps us get the word out and get more subscribers. And if you have a book that you think would make a wonderful episode, I always love hearing from you. You can reach out to me at books at ABA Journal dot com.