EP 814- Coping With Conferences

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, a podcast about successfully navigating law and life featuring the women trial attorneys at the Simon Law Firm.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Heels in the Courtroom. My name is Elizabeth McNulty and I’m here with Erica Slater, Liz Lenivy and Amy Gunn. Hey everybody. Hi. Hello. It’s summer. So today we’re going to be talking about conferences for us in the summer. That means we go to legal kind of conferences, get our continuing legal education or CLEs connect with colleagues that we haven’t seen in a while or some that we have seen and some conferences. We get to spend a little bit of time with our families, bring them along and some of us refer to this as forced fun.

Elizabeth S. Lenivy:

I didn’t know where you were going with that, but This makes sense now.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah, so these conferences, I think they are what you make of them so they can be fun or they can be really miserable. It’s kind of what your outlook is. So we’re going to be talking about some ways to make them more fun and just some strategies to kind of get through them if that’s the way you look at them. Because if you’re someone who maybe this is the first time you’re going to be going to some of these kinds of events, then I think the best thing is to know what you’re getting yourself into because it’s certainly something that you should prepare yourself for. I don’t know if there are other industries that have conferences like this. I’m certain that they are, but especially in the legal field, I think that a lot of lawyers, especially trial lawyers, we kind of are work hard, play hard kind of industries. So these conferences, a lot of people use them, especially in the summer to have a lot of fun. So I think that it’s something to be prepared for, especially as women lawyers. So Liz, what is your main tip for going into your first conference? What do you think was something that you weren’t necessarily prepared for that you wish you had been?

Elizabeth S. Lenivy:

Elizabeth, you, Amy and I just returned from a multi-day conference hosted by theBar Association of Metropolitan St. Louis. And it was interesting. I had not been to this conference in several years, so I had kind of, I guess a unique perspective in that the first time I went, I was very early on in my career and now here I am almost 10 years later and I’m returning to this conference. So I kind of compared the two. And in thinking about preparing for today’s recording, I just sort of thought, okay, how do I prepare the two? Because I will say I feel like I was more successful in networking at this one, and part of that is because I know more people now. I know that that’s the case. But I think a couple of the different strategies I’ve employed that maybe this comes with time and age and experience and just building up my confidence is I did try to make more of an effort to speak to random people.

And I will say this is probably for younger lawyers who are hard eyes introverts like myself, it is very intimidating and very daunting going into some of these conferences and seeing the groups of friends that are already there because my brain, I’m immediately thinking if I go and try to talk to people, I’m going to sound so annoying. They’re going to be like, who is this girl? What is her problem? What a weirdo that was was going through my mind at the first time. I went to a couple of these conferences. The strategy I can employ now and again, this comes with age because now I’ve been the person that’s been in the friend group and I can see someone standing on the outside and they want to try to network and come in. We’re never annoyed when someone wants to break into a group and chat.

That’s what we’re all there for. We all have the same purpose. This is not like when you’re at a bar with your buddies and some random guy tries to but into the conversation and you’re like, Hey man, get out of here. That’s a completely different setting than what we’re doing here where we’re all networking. You’re not being intrusive, you’re not being annoying. We’re there to meet people. So by you taking that first brave step and breaking into the group of people chatting, you’re doing a service not only to yourself, but to the people that you’re trying to talk to. So that’s one difference that I think I’ve noticed in myself and my advice to people going into these settings is don’t be afraid to just start talking to people. The other piece of advice I have though, because I still have these introvert tendencies, is if you can try to sucker a friend into coming with you, because it is just so much easier when you have that person that you can just go everywhere with and link up with.

And I mean, it’s like what our parents told us when we were little buddy system, always use the buddy system. And so Elizabeth, I asked you if you would go to the conference, I had decided that I wanted to go. And so luckily Elizabeth agreed and we were able to go down there together. And so that’s been the big difference that I’ve noticed in the effectiveness of these conferences. In shout out to Bamsl, they did a great job. I thought the CLEs were wonderful, very informative. And that’s sort of the draw because especially right now our deadline for CLE compliance is at the end of June. So for lawyers especially, you see all of these kind of big multi-day conferences come up as we get closer to that compliance reporting date because people want to make sure that they have all of their hours and it’s a really easy way to go and get eight hours in a couple of days, but also get the networking side of it. So I really encourage young lawyers to go to these events and just start talking to people. And if you feel like a conversation’s fizzled out with one group, well now you’ve got an easy out to go and just find someone else to talk to. So that would be my big piece of advice.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I think bringing someone along with you is an excellent piece of advice. I was in a sorority in college, so never went anywhere alone, so very much. And I’ve since graduated from that, very independent now, but it brought me back to that of always going somewhere with someone, which was really great. But I think also for younger women who might be interested in going to something like this, it’s really an added benefit for your own safety, having another woman there with you. So if you can bring someone with you because you never know what could happen in something like this. And it’s always nice to just have a friend or I guess a female colleague there with you. Erica, I know you weren’t able to join us this year, but I know you will be at another conference we have coming up soon, and I know you’ve been to some in the past, so you have any tips for our listeners?

Erica Blume Slater:

Yeah, I think every summer I end up going to a handful of these conferences that are either over the weekend or it’s usually two or three nights that you’re often, at least in Missouri, we’re often at a lake resort type thing or if you are lucky enough to go to one of the A conferences that are all over the country, usually an awesome spots. Those kinds of things end up being good travel and you are able to extend your trip or something and stay on and do some fun stuff. As a counterpoint, I don’t know if the legal community is unique in this, probably not, but I’ve talked to my mom who’s, she’s a registered nurse and she’ll go to conferences in her field, which is toxicology, and I’ve been like, what are you doing? What’s going on there? And excited for her. I think she’s going to get a break, and those conferences are planned from the morning or the second you walk out of your hotel in the morning until the second you go back to your hotel.

Even the dinners were planned and they’re in certain classes and breakout sessions, and it was a very intense focused time, which I mean that makes sense. You’d probably get a ton out of that conference. But what has always given me a little bit of pause is a lot of times at the conferences we go to, it may be one and a half days, two and a half, three full days, and there’s plenty of time built in and there’s usually organized activities like they offer if this group wants to go to golf or when we go to the lake in Missouri, you can take a shuttle to the outlet malls. So there’s some organized activities, but I always kind of felt like an outsider a little bit because there were kind all these groups that you could tell when every year and it’s like, oh, somebody’s got a boat and did you get the boat invite?

Or somebody’s got this dinner set up, did you latch onto a group for a dinner? Liz, I think that’s what you were talking about too. If you have to plan your own stuff or latch onto a group to fill that space of time, if you’re a younger attorney and you haven’t made all these connections, that’s much harder to navigate. As you get more experience and deeper in your profession, that becomes a really fun part because you’re either hosting it or your group of friends. You have your group of friends who goes and does that, somebody’s bought a boat and you’re like, thank God it wasn’t me, but I’ll be happy to be a friend of someone with a boat and it gets really enjoyable. But those are the kinds of things that kind of gave me anxiety before. So I think to kind of plan against that, one thing is to get your own group together and make the plan yourself.

So if everybody goes to, if a lot of people make a reservation at some restaurant, you make the reservation and get your own group together. Or for example, you can reach out to people beforehand like, Hey, are you going to that conference? Great, I’ll see you there. So Liz, remember when we had, there was a young associate on a case that we were co-counseling with her firm and she lives on the other side of the state and reached out to us and was like, Hey, I’m the only one going this conference from my firm. Are you guys going to be there? And we made that connection beforehand and made sure she was taken care of and if we had a reservation, we reached out and included her and hopefully we’re paying it forward and all of us kind of going through that first conference season, if you will.

But if you talk to someone who has been to the conference before, you can kind of know what to expect, get the lay of the land, understand if there’s free time that you need to plan to fill. And the other thing, this is just, I know this is kind superficial, but if you look on the organization’s website and see pictures from the conference year before, you can get a flavor for what’s the appropriate dress at each event and things like that. Sometimes when I was with my first firm, we’d do a retreat every year that function like this conference, but we were big enough that it was just our group and it was important to know that you wore business formal to the classroom part of it, and then the rust was like resort casual, which kind of sounds funny. I don’t know why they did that, but that was something that was important to figure out if I had the right clothes. And resort casual has flummoxed me until last year, so I never thought I had the right stuff to bring. So that’s how you can plan is look at pictures from the year

Elizabeth S. Lenivy:

Before. That’s very smart because I remember the first year that I went to the Missouri Association of Trial Attorneys Matta, our annual conference. I did, and it’s funny, Erica, because we came from the same defense firm, what did I wear to the first day of CLEs suit? Suit? I wore a suit everyone, I’m wearing a suit and heels and the man next to me I think was wearing a Tommy Bahama T-shirt and flip flops. And I’m sitting there like casual, I can see this man’s toes right now wearing a suit. And I learned my lesson after that. But yes, that’s very good. That’s a very good tip to just take a look at some pictures and get an idea of what the vibe is. Yeah,

Amy Cullignon Gunn:

I’d say over the years my attendance at conferences has changed a little bit when my boys were little, even Basil, which those of you who’ve been not family friendly just in terms of the activities,

Erica Blume Slater:

Mostly adult stuff.

Amy Cullignon Gunn:

But 15 years ago we took our boys and I mean we weren’t the only people who brought kids. I know, I know everybody’s laughing, but I think that any opportunity I had to mix work and family, you get a two for one, I was doing it. And since my husband’s a lawyer, it’s really been nice because he knows a lot of the same people that I know and it is not uncomfortable for him to go to these conferences with me. And we brought the kids to as many as we could, particularly Matta. They both grew up in Matta

Erica Blume Slater:

While there’s also an entire hotel room that is cleared out of furniture and made into a free snack room for attendees. Brilliant. Which my kids went once and they can’t shut up about it exactly. They’re like, what about that magical room with as much food as I want?

Amy Cullignon Gunn:

Yes, my boys are 18 and 21 now and they still speak of the snack room.

So I always tried to do as much as that as possible because a real good conference, particularly in the summer, has time set aside free afternoons that you could do whatever and we’d rent a boat or whatever the kids want to do, go to the pool and then we would bring my mother or our babysitter or someone because then there’s nothing more fun than a kid in a hotel room ordering room service. So we would need someone, so we got to do the day stuff with them and then the party stuff, just the two of us. So that always was, I looked very fondly on the conferences where we got to do that. And then Kevin also had his own conferences and at least one in the summer was friendly. And so we would all go to that conference and there were about three or four other families with similarly aged children and they all kind of grew up together.

So it can be super fun now if you are going to conferences and you don’t want to bring your kids or don’t have kids or your kids are grown up like mine are now. I think I’ve got a couple of bits of advice if you’re starting out, the most fun that I’ve had at conferences, even though it’s not terribly relaxing is being a part of the conference, being in leadership of the organization, having roles to play. I need that. I’m not comfortable walking into a room even now. I don’t love it without knowing a whole lot of people or having a role to play that gives me some comfort knowing that, okay, I have to make sure this person is entertained or this person talks to that person, or I’m the bridge between these two people. I have a job to do even at cocktail parties and that made it easier for me to go, especially if Kevin’s not there or I don’t know a whole lot of people.

So I, I’ve done that. So Mada now is easy because my goodness, I’ve been going for so many years and bench and bar have been there a number of times over the years and I love the advice Liz and Elizabeth and Erica on Find Your People. That just makes it easier. So number one, if you’re going to go, I’m a fan of having a purpose and that usually means being in leadership. The second bit of advice is be the plus one. If you can get on a conference with your significant other or your spouse and you have no responsibilities whatsoever, including networking now that’s the best way to go to a conference to be the plus one. I’m in a national organization now that Kevin would go on a couple of the conferences if it’s a good spot, Napa Valley, Kevin Gunn is in. So I have found myself going to some of these conferences by myself and now that I’ve been going for a number of years, I know my people, but I’m also in leadership.

So for me to be comfortable at a larger conference, then I’m on the board. And so I know a lot of the board members now. So I walk into a room and I see a few of ’em and that is what makes me more comfortable, but it also increases the networking because if you’re going to these conferences and you’re on a panel or you’re headlining one of the CLEs, you’re on the board or all three, then people are going to want to talk to you because they want to follow up on something you said in the CLE or they want to talk to you about something that was discussed in the board meeting. And so it just makes it easier and you’re more approachable that way. And that’s just my personality. I want to walk into a room and see somebody and then I’m going to be lying to that person. And you have to network because even though it’s fun, I mean I think we all can agree that the number one reason to do all these conferences is to network and to build relationships and to build business relationships. And I think you have to find the best way you’re comfortable with doing that.

Elizabeth S. Lenivy:

So the thing that I’m thinking about now, because my brain is, okay, I’m listening to this episode, this is all great advice, but I am a first year associate, how am I going to break onto this board? Typically, I think when we talk about board positions, we look for people who have some experience, maybe some leadership already established in the community, but an easy way for young lawyers to do that is look to see if within that organization there is something called a young lawyer section, the Young Lawyer’s Division. That is the easiest way to break in as a newer attorney. And something I wish I had done more of when I was that younger lawyer kind of intimidated in these settings,

Amy Cullignon Gunn:

I couldn’t agree more. And most organizations, I’d say young lawyers or the Women’s Caucus, a lot of organizations do have, it’s a small but mighty. I actually helped put one together for this national organization I was talking about earlier. I am proud of the fact that even for Matta, probably 10 years ago, maybe longer now, maybe 15 years ago, I had been to an a J event, a women’s caucus, a J event, and recognized that Matta didn’t have a women’s caucus and called the executive director and said, we need one, and we’ve had one ever since. Why did I do that? Because it’s a smaller group where I’m more comfortable. It’s very selfish. I wanted a

Erica Blume Slater:

Group, I would like you to create a room full of women that I can walk into. Thank you.

Amy Cullignon Gunn:

And I mean, it’s not that hard. You just do a happy hour and call it the Women’s caucus and start lift serve, and all of a sudden it’s loose. But it’s important in those situations. I can’t believe that I’m alone in that hesitation to walk into a room because again, a lot of our organizations, particularly trial lawyer organizations, are still vast majority men. That’s wonderful. But if you’re like me and you walk into a room and you don’t really see yourself, intimidation is not the right word. I’d like to believe that I have outgrown that, but it’s just not my first choice. I mean, I guess that’s the only way I can put it.

Elizabeth S. Lenivy:

There’s an awareness of it and it’s hard to shake that awareness when you walk in and you’re the only person who looks like

Amy Cullignon Gunn:

You. Yeah, yeah.

Elizabeth S. Lenivy:

It’s that awareness of I don’t know if anyone else is aware of this.

Amy Cullignon Gunn:

Right? And then I worry, what am I wearing? Am I wearing something appropriate for a room full of people that don’t look like me? What am I drinking? Especially if I’m alone, if I got Kevin, that’s a whole different story, but what am I drinking? How much am I drinking? It’s just not as comfortable as if you walk into a room, go straight up to the women and I am very guilty of this. And then maybe after I’m more comfortable and I’ve got my base, then I’ll branch out, then I’m good. But I am the kind of person that is most comfortable with having that base, even if it’s just one person before I can move into the bigger crowd and then I’m good, man, I’m good. I am good at this if I’m in the right space mentally. And I think you have to be to really enjoy it, but it can be done. You have to know yourself.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Amy, you mentioned drinking around people and I think that, I actually dunno. Obviously I’m a lawyer. I’ve only really been in the legal field and I know that drinking in professional settings is very common in our industry. I don’t really know about other industries and I’m curious what the group thinks and if you have personal rules for yourself of what you think drinking in a professional setting. And I think is that different when you don’t know a lot of the people or you’re with a comfortable friend group and what that looks like for you.

Amy Cullignon Gunn:

It’s hard because with social anxiety, the medicine is sometimes alcohol. So you go in and you want to have a good time and be comfortable so you have a drink, so then you’re a little bit more comfortable and then you think, oh, I’m going to have another drink because now I’m more comfortable than I was when I walked in. And then you are on a balancing act of how much is too much because you never ever want to lose your senses for all kinds of reasons, not the leasts of which is this is a professional setting and even though it’s friendly, we are people who talk to each other and often love a good shit show. So you don’t ever want to be that person. And then for more personal safety issues as well, you can never be off your guard. And so that is a balancing act.

You want to be comfortable and sometimes that means drinking, but you can’t drink too much. And so I think you just have to keep in mind I’ll have one drink and maybe it’s what you are drinking. I’ll have one drink and then I will gauge what’s going on. Have I met people? Am I in a group that I’m comfortable with? What time is it? How close to the door am i? I also can ghost. I always have to be somewhere where I can ghost. That’s what I need from my comfort level. And it’s the craziest thing because I feel it coming over me. I don’t know why I can be in a perfectly good conversation with somebody, but I feel like I got to go now. And so that I think as I’ve grown older and done this more often, I don’t let myself get lost in the moment. I am always aware of what time it is, how many drinks have I had, and if I’m alone now, like I said, poor Kevin Gunn, if I’m with him, then most of that is on him. We joke and he shuts down quite a number of parties. He can do it right. So the thing that makes fun of me is he’s in charge of me having a good time and he’ll say, I think you’ve had enough. And then I’ll yell at him because I haven’t had

Elizabeth S. Lenivy:

Enough.

Amy Cullignon Gunn:

And he is like, I can never win. I can never win. But as long as he recognizes he can never win, then we’re okay. So I don’t know. I feel very, very lucky to have him in that context because now we just have a routine and we talk about it beforehand. This is my event. But even then, I think again, the older I get, the less I want to have any attention whatsoever. And particularly not that kind of attention where you’re the drunkie clown.

Elizabeth S. Lenivy:

I kind of want to go back to what I said earlier, buddy system, when you’re in these situations, and it’s interesting because you are technically at a work

Amy Cullignon Gunn:

Event.

Elizabeth S. Lenivy:

Yes, you are there not only representing yourself, but you’re representing your firm or your office wherever it is that you may work. And that’s something that you should probably at least keep in the back of your mind. I’m not trying to be a buzzkill, but just keep it in mind. But Amy, I’m the same way you are where I am much nicer and I think approach more approachable and I make much better conversation after I’ve had maybe a drink or two. Yeah, Elizabeth slapping at me because this last event, she’s like, you were much friendlier when you’ve been drinkings. I get a lot of social anxiety and I think that makes people think I don’t like them. But it’s not that. It’s just I don’t, I’m just awkward. Just let me be awkward. But at the same time, safety is very important. Reputation is very important. So you want to know your limits. But it’s also important again, I think to have a friend there. And I’ve been very lucky to have Steve at several of these events with me and he knows when to put that cane out and pull me off like I’m bombing at the Apollo.

But just to have someone there that you can check on each other and if the other person looks like maybe they’ve had too much or maybe you’re getting a weird energy in a certain setting, maybe it’s time to call it, but you stick with each other, try not to leave each other behind. And again, we’re talking to women right now. We all know these rules. We’ve heard these rules, but it’s always good maybe to just get a quick reminder of them. Yeah,

Amy Cullignon Gunn:

It’s reminiscent of our holiday party episode when we go to these holiday parties. But it is more than that because you’re away from home and you’re in a hotel and you may be in a hotel room by yourself. And so again, not to go all downer, but I think we all, gosh, I tried a case last year that was a work event at a hotel that ended in sexual assault. You cannot understate how important it is to have a buddy and to really always be aware of yourself.

Elizabeth S. Lenivy:

Can I tell a quick story about you, Erica?

Amy Cullignon Gunn:

Oh,

Erica Blume Slater:

I mean that gives me no more information to answer that

Elizabeth S. Lenivy:

Question. This might have been, this was one of the first conferences I had ever gone to. So I was very green and this is what I remember. It was late in the evening after some networking party people had been drinking. So we were on the elevator, you and I were taking the elevator and another man from the conference don’t know him, stranger, he got on the elevator with us and you noticed that he was getting off at the same floor as you and you made the comment of, oh, can I go to your room real quick? I was still going up and we said, are you sure? What am I going to tell you? No. So we rode the elevator up and then you’re like, actually I just didn’t want to get off on the elevator with him. One, I’m not saying he’d do anything but two, you don’t know who’s watching. You don’t know who’s going to spread a rumor, just take care of your reputation like that. I think I’ve maybe read more into you just saying I wasn’t going to get off on that same floor with him. I don’t know who’s around. And that’s just something that was eight years ago that

Amy Cullignon Gunn:

Was

Elizabeth S. Lenivy:

Brilliant. And I just remember that if it’s late in the evening, and again, I’m in a work setting, I’m by myself in a hotel room, maybe just take that elevator a little bit longer.

Erica Blume Slater:

I also think that that is, and Amy you said we didn’t need to go down and down a road, but here we are. I think for our listeners, which our female listeners and also our male listeners, I think this is that crappy point of these are the things we think about. And yeah, I mean in any situation it’s important to be aware of your surroundings, but I mean it’s good to just keep your instincts. And I think it’s that combination of a work conference, alcohol involved and away from your normal life with no one’s eyes on you like your spouse not there. I mean, conferences involve shenanigans for that reason because it’s the perfect recipe for that. And obviously if that is not your intention in going to a conference, then you just going to do things to stay away from that fray. If maybe don’t change location with a group that you’re having a couple drinks with where it’s only getting sloppy from there.

Say, no, I’m going to get up for the 8:00 AM class tomorrow or whatever. I’m going to hit the hey, just call it when it’s time to call it. But alternatively, I was also going to recommend if you see your good friends that you’re catching up with or it’s great to have time to relax with them. I mean, now that I’m in my mom phase, it’s great to see some of my friends who we aren’t able to get together except for this free time that is carved out, change locations. If you want to continue hanging out with them, go ahead and change locations and just make the rest of that night about catching up and you don’t have to be gossiping and having an extra drink or two in front of the whole conference.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Okay, well, I think that those were all some really good safety tips. Hopefully we didn’t overwhelm or freak anyone out, but I think that those thank you first are really good things to keep in mind, especially if you’re someone who’s used to always being with a spouse or always having someone there with you and you are traveling alone. It’s always to good to keep a good check and always keep your head in a swivel. If this is something that sounds really overwhelming to you, don’t be too hard on yourself and still go to the conference, set a list of goals, make your goal to talk to a couple of people and do that and then pat yourself on the back and have a good time, take a break and enjoy yourself. It’s supposed to be fun.

Erica Blume Slater:

Let me pop in my last tip. It is okay, despite everything we’ve said to go to a conference, go to the scheduled events and then go ahead and take advantage of a hotel room by yourself, especially depending on what your home situation is. Again, as a mother of young kids, I have taken the opportunity, and I know my wife has too, when she’s on a work trip to bow out of the evening events if they’re optional and just enjoy a hotel room by yourself and catch up on the TV you don’t have at home and relax. And honestly, that’s a great way to get the feel for a conference, not worry about all the other social stuff that we’ve made you terribly anxious about, I guess. And the next year you will see people that you recognize from the year before and you can just build on it year after year.

Elizabeth S. Lenivy:

The one thing that I wanted to add, which again we just came from that conference,

Was if maybe you’re in a position where you’re planning the conference and you’re trying to think about the best way to get people to network who may not be wanting to take a little bit of me time, which completely fair, but something that the BAM SIL conference did that I thought I really liked it was they gave out this little slip of paper and they were like, find someone who is one of these things. And it was someone who can speak multiple languages, someone who plays an instrument, someone who went to this law school, and it just was a way to get conversation going. And I talked to so many random people I would maybe have never otherwise talked to, and I already had some piece of information about them that I could easily then segue into another conversation. So I think that that was a great way. So if you are the individual planning the conference, try to find icebreakers, forced icebreakers, forced fun, right? But I would give a shout out to whoever at Bamsl thought of that. I thought that that was a really good idea and it was a very effective way of networking for me personally.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I agree. And another way I’ve seen that done, which is even easier for introverts is forced random assigned seating at meals. And then they have random icebreaker questions that you go around the table and ask. And it does make it easier, and it’s an easy way to get to know people. So free ideas for anyone who might be planning social events for organizations. Well, thank you all for joining us on this episode of Heels in the Courtroom. I hope you enjoy whatever networking long conferences you have planned for this summer, and I hope that these tips help you enjoy those conferences. As always, we have episodes to drop every other Wednesday. Thanks so much.

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