Keynote Speaker Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez (State Bar of Texas Annual Meeting 2024)

Episode Notes

Transcript

Rocky Dhir:

Hello and welcome to another episode of the State Bar Texas podcast. We are recording live from our state bar annual meeting in Dallas, Texas. This is your host Rocky Dhir, you ready to hear who we got today? You guys ready for this? Alright, so we’ve got the Honorable Irma Ramirez. She’s just recently ascended to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals and she was our keynote speaker at our luncheon on Friday, Friday of the conference. So Judge, welcome. Thank

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

You so much. I’m so excited to be here.

Rocky Dhir:

Oh my God, we’re excited to have you. Now, for those of you that don’t know the judge, and I go back many years, I think I was there at your investiture when you became a magistrate judge in 2002.

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

You were there.

Rocky Dhir:

It’s hard to forget, right? You’re like, that’s the guy that had to be escorted out by security. Everybody remembers that.

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

I don’t remember that, but thank you for reminding me. Yeah.

Rocky Dhir:

Well that way next time I show up at Chambers, you’ll be like, wait, no, you’re on a list Rock. Get out of here.

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

Wait, can we get a selfie so I’ll know what picture to show the Marshalls?

Rocky Dhir:

Yeah, sure. I’ve aged terribly is what the judge is. I think that’s the implication.

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

No, you look exactly the same, but I’m sorry I didn’t keep your picture.

Rocky Dhir:

The reason I look exactly the same is that I have have looked like I’m 50 ever since I was 19, so

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

I don’t remember that either.

Rocky Dhir:

Yeah, see, she’s so kind. No wonder you’re a federal judge and I do this, so I remember when you were a magistrate in your talk today, which I went to and can you I actually paid attention.

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

Wow. I’m honored.

Rocky Dhir:

Well, that’s why I call you Your Honor. Okay. I mean, this all comes back full circle, but you might remember I was a LawClerk to the honorable Jerry Buck Meyer back in the day, and what

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

An incredible jurist.

Rocky Dhir:

Oh, he was fantastic. But I can honestly say in the whole year that I worked for him, I never once paid attention to anything, but I paid attention to you today. So how about that?

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

I think Judge Buck Meyer would disagree with you not paying attention, but we’ll leave that for another time.

Rocky Dhir:

He, he’d probably just write a joke about me. He’d include me in et cetera and say, get out of here. This is the LawClerk time. Tried to forget. But it’s amazing to me when you were talking up there, I couldn’t help but kind of harken back to that time period, and I wanted to use the word Harken in context, and I think I did it, but it took me back to that time when I first met you and it was 2002, and then you talked a lot about, you called it your failed nomination to become a federal judge. Why would you, it failed because you didn’t do anything that would’ve caused it to not go well. Why use the term failed? That was one of the things that stuck out at me. You call it a failed attempt.

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

Well, it didn’t happen. I got up to the finish line after three long years and then it failed to happen.

Rocky Dhir:

But it wasn’t because of you. It wasn’t because of anything you did, it was just the circumstances. Right? Sure,

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

Sure. I didn’t say necessarily it was my failure. It just failed to happen.

Rocky Dhir:

Okay, look, fair enough. But now here’s what I was wanting to ask. When you were talking about this up on the podium, do you think you would’ve ascended to the Fifth Circuit? Had that worked out?

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

Well, first of all, I don’t think of myself as having ascended. I was confirmed to the fifth Circuit, but I don’t think of it as an ascension, but I think I probably would not have had this incredible opportunity, had my nomination gone through, had I been confirmed as a district court judge back in 2016.

Rocky Dhir:

So it worked out. Kind of worked out, period.

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

Absolutely.

Rocky Dhir:

No, I wonder though, and this is something that you alluded to, but I don’t know that anybody’s ever really spent a whole lot of time talking about, but your nomination and your confirmation to the Fifth Circuit, this was one of those, we don’t hear about these things much, but this was truly a bipartisan effort. I mean, you have two very Republican senators nominating you for a very Democrat president, and the seas parted and it happened. Have you ever given any thought to what brought both sides of the political aisle to agree on something like this? I mean, what helped create this bipartisanship that ended and culminated in this nomination and confirmation?

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

I really don’t know. Those conversations happened behind the scenes. I like to think that because of my prior nomination, the senators were familiar with me. I had been through a full vetting process. I’d gotten right up to the end, and maybe I was just in the right place at the right time. I really don’t know. I honestly wake up every day thinking, did this really happen? I go back and look at the pictures just to be sure.

Rocky Dhir:

Was this your dream job?

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

No, I never dared to dream this high. I never dared to dream of being a judge. I’m first generation. My parents didn’t have any schooling. I was the first on my mom’s side actually, to finish high school and being a lawyer was the dream. Just having that law degree, getting to work at the big firm, I’d exceeded my dream. I was in a skyscraper in downtown Dallas

Rocky Dhir:

Elevators and your ears are popping on the way up.

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

Exactly. And seeing the lights along the skyline when I’m working late at night, it was a beautiful view. Then going to the US Attorney’s Office, I didn’t even know what the US Attorney’s office was. My entire exposure to the criminal justice system had been my summer at the part-Time County Attorney’s Office in Yoakum, Texas with district responsibilities and then a six week internship at the Dallas DA’s office. I had no idea what the US Attorney’s Office was.

Rocky Dhir:

You spent some time talking about firsts First Latina on the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, and I think even before that we talked about all the firsts. The first Latin Americans that were on any circuit courts. We had several. I think Judge Garza might’ve been the first one.

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

Yes, judge Reinaldo Garza.

Rocky Dhir:

So we talk about these firsts. For you, it’s a very important thing, but looking back when you were a young girl and when you were growing up, to what extent would having seen a Latina at that level, to what extent would that have changed or altered your perception of what you could do? I mean, how important would that have been for you as a young girl to see that kind of example, to kind of help pave the way for you? If you look back, how would that have changed the way you approached your career? Or would it have changed it at all?

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

It absolutely would’ve changed. It would’ve made me believe that I could be, that my entire exposure was to the county attorney. So being a prosecutor was all I knew at the time when I decided I wanted to be a lawyer, and that’s what I set out to be. I didn’t really know anything about civil law. I didn’t know about big law firms practicing downtown. I just knew about this part-time county attorney and the lawyer in the neighboring town who had come over to try cases against him. So I came from a very small worldview and had my view been expanded, it would’ve made me start to think and dream much bigger. When I was at the US Attorney’s Office, I served as a judge for one of my mock trial students’ service public service project, and she had created a mock trial program out of a Dr. Seuss book, and she had advised Serve as the judge. So I went down and I did, and one of the questions afterwards from the students who were fifth graders was from a little girl who asked, can girls be judges too? Because I’d played that role and I told her, yes, girls can be anything they want. She looks skeptical. All of the kids who have come to my Courtroom and sat in my chair and gotten to play the roles of judges and lawyers, they believe it. They don’t look skeptical at all.

Rocky Dhir:

What were the dinner conversations like when you were growing up, and how would they change today? Now that you’re at the position you’re in now, walk us through a typical dinnertime conversation. When you were growing up with your parents, what would be the topics, and you had these big dreams, but how would that play out on a day-to-Day basis?

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

Well, first of all, those conversations would’ve been in Spanish. Sure.

Rocky Dhir:

So I mean, if you tell me, I still, I won’t understand anything. So I

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

Don’t really remember us talking about dreams. We talked about our days, we talked about school, but as a child, I hadn’t even started to think about law. I was a sophomore in high school before I first even thought that I might want to become a lawyer.

Rocky Dhir:

But you said education was something very important to your parents. Yes. How did that become such a priority for them? So many times there are parents who think, well, we hear stories of this that, well, I did X, and so my kids can do X. Never think beyond that. Your parents had the foresight to say, look, let’s inculcate this value of education. Where did that come from?

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

My dad.

Rocky Dhir:

Are you a daddy’s girl?

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

I was. I’ve lost him, unfortunately, but he’s still with me every

Rocky Dhir:

Day. Daddy’s girls are for life. Yes,

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

Yes. He came to this country in the late 1950s under the BRACE program from Mexico.

Rocky Dhir:

What is that program? He

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

Came to work in the cotton fields of West Texas. It was a program designed to bring people in to work in the agriculture industry. And so he ended up working at the same ranch where my mother’s family was working, and he had intended to go back and ultimately did go back, but they’d fallen in love. He came back, got married, and they stayed in the fields of West Texas, and he would always tell me when I was young, ESHA, which means study daughter, so you don’t have to work in the fields like I do. And that was his hope that I have a job inside in the air conditioning because it’s hot out there in

Rocky Dhir:

August. Absolutely.

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

And that was his dream that I would be inside in an air conditioned job where I didn’t have to suffer the elements the way he had all his life.

Rocky Dhir:

Did he get to see you finally achieve that? Did he get to come visit an office and see where you work and

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

He came to that very investiture that you referenced early on? He was there in 2000. Yes. Yes. And we had the best hug afterwards. He always called it my graduation.

Rocky Dhir:

In the sense that you’re graduating into, I guess now you’re kind of part of the vanguard, I mean, what did he mean by your graduation?

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

I think it was just because people came out in these long black robes. I know line, they handed me a piece of paper. It just kind of looked like a graduation. Right, okay. He never really understood what I did, and I invited him to come watch me in court so many times and he always said, no, I’m okay.

Rocky Dhir:

How do you think he would feel about you being on the Fifth Circuit now? Do you think he would understand this and the difference between this and your magistrate job?

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

I’m not sure that he would, but he would think that the graduation party was a lot better.

Rocky Dhir:

He’s like, whoa, she upgraded. All of a sudden

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

I’m at the Arts District mansion and not in a little Courtroom, which my first one was awesome. It was personal, it was small, it was perfect. But we had a great party for my investiture on the fifth circuit.

Rocky Dhir:

So now I wonder, as this was where you really got into the substance, you started talking about numbers and statistics, and this had to do with the number of Latinx individuals that were on the federal bench, either at the district level or at the circuit level. Now the questions I’m going to ask, I’m going to ask the questions that a lot of people might want to ask, but they always feel bashful about asking. So these might be a bit brash, but let’s get it out there. If I can ask anybody. That’d be you. Alright, we go back a long way. So here’s a question. Why in today’s day and age is 2024? We’ve come such a long way since 1951, at least I hope we have. Why now? Is it still important for us to track and talk about identity in the federal judiciary as opposed to just saying, here’s a great lawyer who became an amazing magistrate judge and now she’s the senator of the Fifth Circuit. What role does the identity play in that entire equation? Why are we talking about it? And I wanted to see your thoughts on why that’s an important discussion.

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

It’s about representation. I mentioned the little girl who asked if girls could be judges too, that she didn’t know that girls could be judges or that women could be judges. I’ve had conversations with women lawyers who said their daughters didn’t understand that girls could be judges too, and so they’ve brought them to my Courtroom to meet me. Well, when I had a Courtroom.

Rocky Dhir:

Too bad. So sad. Yeah.

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

Well, I share one now, but it’s pretty awesome. It’s an awesome Courtroom. And then there was this tremendous outreach after my nomination and my confirmation and so many students and young lawyers have told me what this nomination means to me, to them, that it truly makes them believe that they can achieve this too. That sky is the, I referenced that little girl who looks skeptical and it’s one thing to say you can do it. It’s another thing to show them they can do it.

Rocky Dhir:

How do we as a country get to a point when every child believes that they can achieve something like this or whatever they set their minds to? What does it take for us to get to that point where they don’t say, well, I’m a girl, or I’m a Mexican girl, or I’m an Indian girl, or I’m a black girl, or whatever the label is. They just say, that’s my dream. I can go for it. Everybody can achieve these things. How long will it take and what do you think it’ll take to get us there?

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

I don’t know how long it will take. I never thought it would take this long to get here, but I do think it takes seeing people who look like you in different positions so that you truly start to believe that you can achieve your dreams and your goals and that it’s not just something people tell you.

Rocky Dhir:

Here’s I guess one final question to kind of bring us back full circle if you will, but since the time that you became a lawyer until today, how would you say the practice of law has changed and what advice would you give to new lawyers starting out that maybe would not have applied when you, or even when I graduated, but now today, there’s a new era. How do you become a successful lawyer and someday maybe even a successful jurist in today’s legal landscape?

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

That’s a really tough question to answer. So many things are different now than when I became a lawyer. I think there’s still a big emphasis on billable hours. I don’t know how long that’s going to last as more clients want blended rates and we need to find different ways of making business a law. I think that young people are so much better about expressing what they need in order to develop and mature as lawyers, and I think they’re much better about asking for it. I certainly think as a young associate, I tried to be seen and not heard.

Rocky Dhir:

I did what I was told.

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

Exactly. And you’re in the library at four o’clock knowing somebody’s going to have a TRO and they’re going to need someone to research, and you just hope that you’re not the one tapped.

Rocky Dhir:

Or maybe you do

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

Or maybe you do. I don’t know. I don’t know. I guess it depends on the case, but I also think that young people forget sometimes that even though they are so much more comfortable about asking for what they want and what they need, the people who are in a position to give it to them come from my generation. And so you have that gap to bridge.

Rocky Dhir:

I wonder how that’s going to change when there’s somebody, when today’s young people someday ascends to the bench, either at the district court level, magistrate level, appellate level, how that’s going to change the dynamic of the legal profession and what we expect of one another. Nobody knows. It’s just one of those interesting kind of open book questions.

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

It is, but it takes enough. One person can make a ripple, but one person can’t do it by himself or herself or their self. It takes more.

Rocky Dhir:

It certainly does. Well, judge Ramirez, we have kept you for very long and we appreciate the time you’ve taken to be with us, but we’ve reached the end of our time together for this podcast, but I’m sure we’ll be doing this again in the near future. So thank you for joining us.

Judge Irma Carrillo Ramirez :

Thank you for having me.

Rocky Dhir:

Absolutely. And I want to thank you, our listeners for tuning in. If you like what you heard, if you love listening to Judge Ramirez, please rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. I’m Rocky Dhir. Until next time, thanks for listening.

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