EP 918- Raising the Bar by Improving “the Bar” with Megan Phillips Part One

Episode Notes

Transcript

Announcer:

Welcome to Heels in the Courtroom, where the trial lawyers of the Simon Law Firm break down what it takes to win in the courtroom and in life.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Heals in the Courtroom. This is Elizabeth McNulty, and today I’m here with Liz Lenivy and a guest we are so, so excited to have on Megan Phillips. Welcome, Megan.

Megan Phillips:

Thank you. Happy to be here.

Elizabeth McNulty:

So Megan is a force in the legal world, a federal law clerk, law professor, and one of Missouri’s leading voices for gender equity in the profession. She spent over two decades shaping legal decisions behind the bench as a law clerk, currently serving in the US District Court for the Eastern District of Missouri. She also directed the judicial externship program at St. Louis University School of Law, mentoring the next generation of legal professionals. I initially met Megan through WLA, I think, the Women Lawyers Association of Greater St. Louis and through her work with the Missouri Bar. She is recently past president of the Missouri Bar and she was also a president of the WLA. And she’s a passionate advocate for women in the profession and has led statewide reforms to support working parents, expand access to clerkships and promote gender equity in the courts. So we are really excited to touch on a little bit of everything in her career today.

So thank you for coming on, Megan.

Megan Phillips:

It’s an honor. I’ve been a fan of your podcast since the beginning and I’m really happy to be here.

Elizabeth McNulty:

So I know that you’re currently a judicial law clerk, as we’ve touched on, but how did you kind of get to where you are? What was your first position in the law?

Megan Phillips:

I like to quip that my career trajectory, the early years, especially looks like an ampersand. It was not linear at all. After I graduated from law school, I actually moved to France and worked at a New York law firm in Paris for a couple of years, and then came back to the States. The only thing I was qualified to do at that point was deal work. That’s what I’d been doing in France. So I continued to do that. When I came back to St. Louis, I was at Bryan Cave doing M&A, commercial transactions. It was a great firm, great people. I met a lot of friends, but I didn’t feel like my unique skillset was really optimized in a big law environment. And I was always interested in women’s advocacy since college and law school. So to be frank, I paid off my loans and started looking for work in the public interest and social justice and just kind of fell into one position after another by virtue of knowing people and being in the right place at the right time.

Actually, I taught at Mizzou in the Family Violence Clinic with Mary Beck as her teaching fellow and then worked in a grant funded position at the St. Louis County Family Court as a domestic violence consultant. So working in the kind of battered women’s advocacy community for a couple of years, I was president of WLA and actually quit my day job to do that full-time because I had a lot of ambition for my years president and then kind of accidentally fell into a clerkship when I was getting ready to have my son. Again, just because I had a friend who clerked and her husband clerked and locked into a job with the Supreme Court of Missouri for what was supposed to be a very temporary position and ended up lasting a year and a half. And after my first boss retired, once I had my foot in the door, I loved clerking, single mom with a toddler at that point and needed the flexibility of public service job, I guess, and stayed in clerking for the next … Well, it’s been 18 years.

I’m in my 18th year as a public servant for the third branch. I’ve had six or seven bosses at this point in the Missouri Appellate System, the Supreme Court, the Court of Appeals. And for the past six years, I’ve been with the federal court. So it was a path I never anticipated, but it’s been extremely rewarding and I’m the happiest lawyer I know.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I’d say that is pretty accurate from our interactions. And really, from hearing your story previously, I think you have the most interesting career just because you’ve done a little bit of everything and you do seem incredibly happy, which is really rare for lawyers, especially when we get around each other. We just like to complain about whatever is going on. And I’ve never heard you do that, which is kudos to you. Really impressive.

Megan Phillips:

I mean, again, my career path has been very passive. I would say that I haven’t made very intentional, deliberate, strategic career choices over the course of the past 25 years, but I did learn somewhere along the way that purpose and time are more important to me than money and titles. And so I have gotten to a place where I am pretty much happy and I know that it’s a luxury. I consider that a luxury and not everybody gets that in their career at any given time. And especially when you’re younger, there’s a grind. There’s a period of grind that’s unavoidable no matter what your first job is, or whether you’re in litigation or corporate or family law or whatever, you’re paying your dues, you’re grinding, you’re probably paying off loans. I can understand why people need to complain and vent sometimes. This is a really demanding and trying profession.

I’m lucky though that I’m much older than you, and I’m at a point where I’ve made choices that have put me in a position where I do have a really rewarding career and I am happy with where I am and find purpose in the work that I do. And everyone will get there if you choose to. Sometimes it takes a little courage and risk and fear in changing jobs, voting with your feet if you’re not happy where you are, but it’s always worth it on the other side.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

I am thinking back on other guests that we’ve had and also the experience of the women that host this podcast. And you may be one of the first people I can think of that has had big law experience. And so in touching on this idea of what Elizabeth has brought up, you’ve gotten to wear so many hats and you’ve had so many experiences. And I am always curious because I have friends who are in big law, but from your perspective, I guess you talked about the grind, but what was that big law experience like? If we’ve got listeners who maybe are in law school, they’re considering big law, do you have any reflections or thoughts for them on that particular phase of your career?

Megan Phillips:

It was probably different for me then than it is for young associates now. So I don’t want to assume that things haven’t evolved. Again, I moved to France for personal reasons right after law school and happened, just looked my way into a job with a large New York firm’s Paris office. I was doing a lot of translations and just first year associate scot work for the American partners who were doing international deal work. I mean, this was the late ’90s in France and the workplace culture was just overtly sexist. I mean, the managing partner was having an open affair with his secretary, called her secretary at the time, and women just got yelled at. And one woman who, I think she was a senior associate and was applying for partner or on partner track was told, “Well, there are just too many women already in the litigation department.” Oh, no.

Sorry.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

They’ve hit the quota.

Megan Phillips:

Yeah. I mean, it was just saying the quiet part out loud. Yeah, it was just overly sexist. So it was just a completely different time and context. And that was really eye-opening for me as my first job out of law school. I mean, I frequently tell law students, especially of this generation, for the most part, their academic experience has probably seemed fairly equitable, but as we know, on the other side of the tassel, the playing field is still slanted in some places. And so that remains the case, but I think it was even more so in the ’90s. When I came back to Missouri and started working in big law here, I was at Brian Cave, I’ll just say, it was a great firm, still a great firm. I made wonderful friends, absolutely positive experience, but it was the ’90s. It was a different time for the legal profession.

Casual Fridays was like a earthquake when that happened. It was such a big deal when we were able to wear, not suits, but like sweater sets and slacks on Fridays. Jeans didn’t come along until much later. We still had to wear pantyhose and closed toed shoes every day. I mean, there were rules, but I would say that it was a very supportive environment, not speaking just for Brian Cave, but just the St. Louis community overall. In big law, it was kind of the beginning of a trend where large law firms, the firms on the coasts were kind of leading the evolution, but even in the Midwest, firms were establishing women’s initiatives or affinity groups within law firms and doing things to help women with business development and paid maternity leave was a brand new concept. And so there was definitely a positive evolution, but it was still a challenge in terms of business development for women.

I mean, for the most part, relationship partners would hand down their book of business to younger lawyers who looked like them. And client origination was still kind of a first touch rule and there was no credit sharing. And I think the landscape is changing. And I’ve been out of big law for so long. I really can’t speak to what it’s like now for women there now. I hope it’s better. I didn’t have anything to compare it to. And because I’ve been gone so long, I really don’t anymore other than just having friends or in that environment. And I’d like to think that the women my age who are still in big law are changing it from the inside. And sometimes it’s just a matter of they don’t do it. Maybe they’re not strident and causing a stir in the way they do it, but they’re going to work every day and doing a great job for their clients and working their way up the ranks and then serving on an executive committee and compensation committee and bringing a new perspective and a more holistic approach to management.

And all of us have our own role to play in moving the needle. And some people do it loudly and obnoxiously like me, and then others do it by just going to work and doing it every day and set an example and succeeding.

Elizabeth McNulty:

So it sounds like you kind of had that quintessential corporate lawyer experience. I would picture it if I had to have a movie character that’s like a young female corporate lawyer with the horrific overtly sexual harassment experiences. Not that that happened to you, but

Megan Phillips:

Just like- Yeah, I had my ass grabbed at a corporate retreat. Oh, can you say that? Are we allowed to cuss on this? Yes. Oh yeah, actually. 100%. I’ve heard words on this show before.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

We’ve maybe had a bit of a history there.

Elizabeth McNulty:

It’s fine. And so from those experiences, I feel like that must have sort of shaped where you wanted to go with your career. And so did you feel pressure to fit into that traditional big law culture or were you always ready and focused on changing it from the start?

Megan Phillips:

I felt fortunate to be there. Frankly, I didn’t graduate from law school with the grades and profile of a person who would work in big law or even clerk for a judge, just got lucky in a lot of respects. So I wouldn’t say that I went in trying to change things from the inside. I was grateful to be there and just trying to learn and be a good associate. Had I not changed tracks and left when I did, I probably would’ve gotten fired because I wasn’t great at capturing all my time. So it was just not a good fit for me. But no, I wouldn’t say that I was trying to change things from the inside. I was too young, but I immediately got involved in WLA and just realized instantly, okay, these are my people. This is my sisterhood and saw the value and impact of the work that the organization was doing.

And so that was kind of my outlet for those ambitions or visions for contributing to positive change in the profession. At work, yeah, I was just trying to survive, do what people told me to do, do the work for the clients, figure out how to bill hours more effectively and gosh, just be an adult, right?

Elizabeth Lenivy:

That’s a full-time job right there. You’ve just had such a great career. And I’m now thinking about this idea of when you initially start, it’s just like you’re just trying to figure things out and you just want to show up and do your job well. And it almost feels like, at least, and you tell me if I’m way off base here, but it almost feels like you have to sort of earn your stripes a little bit, get some political capital in whatever business or firm, wherever you’re at. And then you can start to have some positive change once you have figured out A, what you’re doing and then B, can kind of come up with a plan. And sort of pivoting this to positive change, I know something that has been big for you has been mentorship. And that’s something that’s been big for, I think all of us here, not only being on the receiving end of great mentorship and having wonderful relationships with our mentors, but now I’m 10 years in.

I feel like it’s my responsibility to give back. Absolutely. And I’ve been very lucky to have such wonderful examples that I can base my mentee relationships on now. Within the relationships that you’ve developed with your mentees, are there any unique challenges that you feel women still face, whether they’re stepping into the behind the scenes and in the chambers where you work now, or whether they’re in the front in the courtroom?

Megan Phillips:

A couple of things. I mean, again, I’m old, so I don’t want to speak for younger generations, but I think- You’re not old. I perceive that the sort of persisting challenges from my vantage point, one is still motherhood and the maternal wall. And we have made great strides with flex time and maternity leave and working from home and lactation accommodation in the courthouses and so many things we’re doing better than we did in the ’90s. So maybe it’s becoming more about the division of labor at home because I don’t know that we have at the same time trained our partners to step up. I perceive that women are still finding motherhood to be a barrier even though the workplace and the courts are making efforts to accommodate and advance mothers and retain talent, they’re still carrying most of the load at home and they’re going to burn out and that just doesn’t work long term.

So I don’t mean to throw shade on the guys. And I think there are a lot of younger men who are stepping up, but just broadly, that seems to still be an issue for a lot of women and kind of an impediment. And the other thing I see, just especially as a law clerk and working in the courts, is I can tell when the young female junior associate has done all the work on a case or a brief or a motion or whatever, and then they come into court to argue it and the senior male relationship partner gets to stand up and argue the motion or whatever it is. And A, it’s annoying. It makes me mad because you know the woman is sitting there going, “Ugh, you need to say this or you should have said that or that’s not accurate.” Let her get up and argue it.

And it’s better for the client and it’s better for the firm and it’s not impressing the court to do it that way. I hope young women who have experienced this are hearing this and I see you. I don’t know how to change that. On a national level, I’ve been in rooms where this is discussed and there’s a suggestion that judges maybe should gently encourage counsel before them to, “Hey, why don’t you let Ms. So- and-so get up and argue this motion?” And okay, but judges don’t feel really comfortable doing that, but for any men in senior positions listening to this, I challenge you to let that young woman associate who put in all the hours and knows the evidence backward and forward. Let her get up and argue it. She’s going to slay.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

I’m sorry. I’m laughing right now because I’m thinking of, and I hope I’m not calling them out. This is a nice story ultimately, but a couple of months ago, I had a really important hearing on a really important matter and I had done all the work on the case and I had briefed the issue and John Simon went with me to the hearing and I was going to argue everything and I had planned everything out and I could tell it was killing him, not that I was arguing, but that he didn’t get to get up and argue. It’s a thing of like you see other people doing and you’re like, “I want to do the fun thing too.” And standing up and arguing is fun. And

Megan Phillips:

Lawyers are control freaks and such control freaks. And especially when it’s a relationship, I mean, the client relationship is with the … I get that, but man, you got to …

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Yes. But John let me do it. And while we were sitting there, he was sort of writing notes to me, just trying to help me along. Not that I didn’t know all of those arguments, because again, I knew the case inside and out, but he let me do it. And I thought that that was really important because it was an absolutely crucial motion that if we had lost, would have been detrimental to the case. And we won because we were right. I mean, I think it was very obvious that we were right, but I really appreciate. And that’s not the first time John’s done that where he has made that effort to let his younger associates, male or female, get up there and get the experience. And I think part of it too is when he thinks about, and I’m speaking for him, but when he thinks about his firm, these are the attorneys that are, you’re going to be leaving the firm too.

Don’t you want them to be prepared and well-trained? So I echo your challenge to senior male partners to let the younger associates, especially women, step up and get that experience. And that’s

Megan Phillips:

Almost like a flex. If the client is in the courtroom and watching, that’s a flex. Like, look how deep our bench is. They’ve got this. If I get hit by a bus tomorrow, you’re fine.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Yes. Someone is on it. There’s always going to be a ton of people here on it.

Elizabeth McNulty:

And it’s hard as I think the younger associate in that position to feel like you need to fight for it because if the older partner is like, “Well, can you handle this? ” You feel like they don’t have faith in you and you’re like, “Oh, I don’t know. ” Maybe you should just do it. So I think it’s better to not even question it and just let them go ahead and handle it.

Megan Phillips:

And I’m curious if, I mean, again, I’m not on your side of the bar. I imagine it would be really uncomfortable. I don’t know if anyone would dare ask somebody in John’s position like, “Hey, I want little baby associate. Hey, I want to argue this motion. Is that okay? I know everything. I’m going to do a great job.” That would be super scary. And I don’t know, even just in terms of professional etiquette, if anybody would feel comfortable doing that.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I don’t know that I would. It used to happen to me quite frequently in my first year or so. It would be like, “You’re going to argue this. ” It becomes game time and it’s like, nevermind, I’m going to do it. It’s like, okay, well, I stressed and didn’t sleep last night, but sure, go ahead and do it. And that became so repetitive that I just kind of stopped preparing for it because it’s like, well, it’s just going to get taken away from me at the end of it. That

Megan Phillips:

Did happen to me last year during my term as bar president. I was doing some contract work and wrote a motion for a solo attorney in a support role on a case and I thought I was going to argue it and then he ended up wanting to do it and it didn’t go well.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Well, I will say I have here, I have always felt empowered to step up whenever I wanted. I’ve had a different experience and basically I don’t think I’ve ever been told no if I wanted to take on extra work, but I have been in that position before where I did not feel like I necessarily had the ability to request those kinds of things. And part of it is because I think it’s a lot harder on the defense side to try to get those opportunities for yourself because this has always been my impression because of what client expectations are.

And so when there is some big deposition where here I’m stepping up, I want to take their primary standard of care opposing expert, I’m ready to do it, I know how important this is. On the flip side, I understand that the client has an expectation that no, the more experienced partner is going to be doing this. That makes sense. I think that I am trying to keep in mind that my experience on the plaintiff side is probably a lot different than what my colleagues on the defense side have because of just the structure of their jobs.

Megan Phillips:

True. Yeah. I think young associates in large, big law defense firms probably aren’t thrown into the deep end and as maybe prepared for that sort of pressure just takes longer to get there. That makes sense.

Elizabeth McNulty:

I was curious, you touched on the Division of Labor as kind of a barrier for women. And I haven’t heard anyone really talk about that, but I’ve certainly experienced it in my own life for hearing other women talk about it, but not as a concept of like, this is making it harder for me to do my job and excel in my career. Also feel like it’s such a difficult problem to solve from like a, I don’t know, like a-

Megan Phillips:

Systemic.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Yeah. Or like an industry. What are we supposed to do about it? Except for pick good partners, I guess is the only real thing.

Megan Phillips:

I

Elizabeth McNulty:

Actually wrote

Megan Phillips:

That down. Yeah, no, it’s definitely not unique to the legal profession, right? It’s just like global essentially. And yeah, I think it is really important to pick the right partner and to have those conversations before you marry someone or have kids with somebody and understand expectations. I mean, how many women left their jobs during COVID? It breaks my heart. The other thing that I hammer on when I speak to young women, a lot of women leave the workforce, and again, this isn’t unique to lawyers, but a lot of women do the math around childcare and decide that it would be more economical to leave the workforce for a few years while they’re raising babies and then get back in later. But I mean, I urge you, even if you’re only breaking even, or even if you’re in the red for a few years, over the long term, it is much more beneficial and lucrative for you to stay in the workforce during those years, even if you’re losing money on childcare.

Staying in the workforce during those years, when you project that out, you are in a better position in 10 years, in 20 years, in 30 years if you’ve stayed in the workforce. It is not easy to reenter the profession. I mean, we, the Women’s Commission, we had an initiative where we changed the Missouri Court rules to make it easier for any lawyer to reactivate a law license after a period of voluntary inactivity or hiatus, but you can’t just start sending out your resume and get a job and pick up where you left off. It is not that easy. You lose so much ground, you lose your connections, you lose your skills and just the way your brain works. You have a big gap on your resume. It is not worth the money to leave the profession for any amount of time. So I know that is always kind of part of the calculation for women with motherhood and one of those impediments, but I just urge you to stay in the workforce and stick it out because it’s better in the long run.

And I mean, there are studies that you can Google this, look it up. There are studies that prove this, but that’s also the conventional wisdom.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

I’ve thought about this for several years now, but it’s also sort of come up in recent conversation because one of our co-hosts is out on maternity leave and she and I were having a conversation about just even her taking maternity leave because she has given birth and created new human life, which is a huge impact emotionally and physically. She needs that time, not only to care for her newborn, but to also physically recover from that.

Megan Phillips:

Absolutely.

Elizabeth Lenivy:

Just in the three months that she’s out, just the opportunity and business that she’s lost. And on the flip side of that, I have heard from so many male colleagues, both internally and externally who their wives or partners give birth and they’re back at work in 10 days.

They didn’t take any paternity leave. They’ve lost … I mean, it’s basically just like a vacation kind of like they took a couple days off and then they’re back in the office. No real opportunity lost. They have not missed out on any potential cases really in that two weeks or 10 days, whatever. I have thought about it in terms of as a society or as a business something, what is the way to sort of even that playing field a little bit? Because it is inherently uneven between women and men. I mean, unless you’re adopting, arguably, one partner is going to be going through a lot more than the other. And the only thing I can think of is really is for businesses to be really pushing paternity leave and telling their male colleagues, “You should be taking that time off and going home and helping your partner as well.” That’s the only solution I can think of for a much greater societal problem.

Megan Phillips:

And I think some firms are getting better at that. I know, again, in big law where they’re sort of competing to be the most progressive and just really focused on retention and equity. In fact, I have a colleague at my workplace who has been taking parental leave and his wife is a doctor, and so they’re both kind of sharing that leave and he’s still logging on and doing work, but they’re home with their baby as much as possible and sharing that load equally. And I think that’s just beautiful and healthy and so good for the baby and the unit and mom and dad. Inequity goes both ways, right? How many young fathers would like to take more paternity leave and are afraid to ask their firms, “Hey, I want more than a week off. I want to spend more time.” And some of those policies are gender neutral.

It really depends on the firm, but I think that’s a good start. And I think the younger generations are insisting on the men and fathers being more involved from the beginning and the women saying, “Hey, I’ve got patience I got to go take care of. So I’m not doing this on my own.” I don’t know. This is advancing at a glacial speed and we’re all so impatient to see more progress here and it’s scary to ask for it. And I think we just have to be a little bit fearless. And I’m speaking to the young parents now, know your value to your employer and push the envelope just ever so gently. And that widens the path for the next person. And one of my idols and mentors, Audrey Flysig, was apparently the first pregnant partner at Thomson Coburn, and they didn’t have a maternity policy and she presented them with one.

And she also made partner when she was working part-time. I mean, there were so many things that she just, and she’s, as you know, fearless and she just knew her value and said, “This is what I need in order for this to work.” And they’re like, “Okay, because if you’ve met her.” And so some of us can do that with greater sort of force than others, but we can all support each other and anyone with position of authority or influence in any size firm can just step up and recognize that parenthood and personal lives are important to all of us, not just women, but this generation of men and fathers has a very different view of parenthood than my dad or probably your dad’s. And having male allies working on this together makes us just more influential.

Elizabeth McNulty:

Thank you for joining us, Megan. We will pick up this conversation in two weeks. As always, we drop episodes every other Wednesday, so we will talk to you then. Thanks so much.

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